That's cool

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:12:17 +0000, in
<dh1kq398j38m8fms2aa6f2k9tdaehb9ut6.DeleteThis@4ax.com>, Paul Corfield
<aooy65.DeleteThis@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

>And I don't blame you. I certainly won't be shopping in any supermarket
>that does that. However even if you don't have a loyalty card I'm still
>convinced that they track you via your debit or credit card number if
>you use that as the normal means of payment.

Naah, that's just paranioa

More to the point is that it wouldn't provide any meaningful data -
they wouldn't be able to get (or store) your address just from CC
details (data protection act) and as such any information wcouldn't
reliably be tied to a customer. Plus, of course, CC numbers change
quite frequently, so the typical life-span of such data would only be
a couple of years anyway.

And they have a hard enough time making good use of the loyalty card
data anyway - it's all very hit & miss really, and in fact the main
areas in which it's used are to identify spending (i.e. product)
patterns among particular population groups, rather than attempting to
target individual customers.

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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:10:29 +0000, Paul Corfield
<aooy65.RemoveThis@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:40:35 -0600, Mark Olson <olsonm.RemoveThis@tiny.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>[supermarket loyalty cards]
>>Because they rob you blind if you don't have one? Dunno about where
>>you are, but in the western USA nearly every item at Albertson's et al,
>>is _way_ overpriced unless you use one of the cards. Strangely,
>>they'll happily give you a "loyalty card" (AKA tracking device) at the
>>register without requiring you to fill out the form, and you can bin
>>it on your way out.
>
>I've never come across differential pricing like that in the UK. Sure
>you can earn extra points for purchasing certain products but premium
>prices for no loyalty cards - eek! A bloody dreadful idea. I suppose
>this will be coming to a Wal^h^h^Asda near us sometime soon.

There's a chain of camping shops, Go Outdoors, who do it.

You get a card for a quid a year, and I don't recall it actually
needing registering. But it means you can buy anything in store at
the marked prices. Otherwise you pay about 25% more.
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Higgins wrote:
> Eddie wrote:
>> Higgins wrote:
>>>>
>>> I had a similar experience when proffering a Scottish tenner in
>>> exchange for a couple of pints. "Can't take that" says the barman
>>> after putting the pints on the bar. "Fair enough" says I, over my
>>> shoulder.
>>
>> It's not legal tender in England, so he's not obliged to take it.
>>
> You don't understand what legal tender means, do you?

I do, but I was being lazy. "He's not obliged to take it" still stands.

--
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Higgins@work wrote:
> On 7 Feb, 11:48, Eddie <ed....DeleteThis@deguello.org> wrote:
>> Higgins wrote:
>>> Eddie wrote:
>>>> It's not legal tender in England, so he's not obliged to take it.
>>> You don't understand what legal tender means, do you?
>> I do, but I was being lazy. "He's not obliged to take it" still stands.
>>
> He's not obliged to take English notes either.

"... their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter
for agreement between the parties involved."

So, he didn't agree.

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On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:15:29 +0100, Ace <seesig.RemoveThis@ifrance.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:12:17 +0000, in
><dh1kq398j38m8fms2aa6f2k9tdaehb9ut6.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, Paul Corfield
><aooy65.RemoveThis@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>And I don't blame you. I certainly won't be shopping in any supermarket
>>that does that. However even if you don't have a loyalty card I'm still
>>convinced that they track you via your debit or credit card number if
>>you use that as the normal means of payment.
>
>Naah, that's just paranioa

Well possibly.

>More to the point is that it wouldn't provide any meaningful data -
>they wouldn't be able to get (or store) your address just from CC
>details (data protection act) and as such any information wcouldn't
>reliably be tied to a customer. Plus, of course, CC numbers change
>quite frequently, so the typical life-span of such data would only be
>a couple of years anyway.

But I'm pretty sure that the payment system captures your name from the
card - how else does it get printed on receipts? It would hardly take a
lot of effort for a local branch of a store to link my name to some
other source of name and address data.

The reason I believe they can do this is that I got a targeted mailshot
from Sainsburys and I have no loyalty cards at all. There are also
several possible branches I can use but the one I had used was the one
that I was directed to use in the mailshot. I accept I may be adding 2
plus 2 and getting 5 but it seemed odd to me.

>And they have a hard enough time making good use of the loyalty card
>data anyway - it's all very hit & miss really, and in fact the main
>areas in which it's used are to identify spending (i.e. product)
>patterns among particular population groups, rather than attempting to
>target individual customers.

I take your point about the basic targetting process but I wonder if the
big guns (i.e. Tesco) really find it that hard. Don't they have a
completely separate data division that collates huge quantities of data
to generate profiles on customers? I simply couldn't see a voraciously
free market yet dominant company wasting money on a data service if they
did not derive at least commensurate benefit from it. If it didn't work
they'd close it.
--
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Paul Corfield wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:15:29 +0100, Ace <seesig DeleteThis @ifrance.com> wrote:
>
> > And they have a hard enough time making good use of the loyalty card
> > data anyway - it's all very hit & miss really, and in fact the main
> > areas in which it's used are to identify spending (i.e. product)
> > patterns among particular population groups, rather than attempting
> > to target individual customers.
>
> I take your point about the basic targetting process but I wonder if
> the big guns (i.e. Tesco) really find it that hard. Don't they have a
> completely separate data division that collates huge quantities of
> data to generate profiles on customers?

Tesco, at least, send out money off vouchers based on what you have
purchased when using your loyalty card.


> I simply couldn't see a
> voraciously free market yet dominant company wasting money on a data
> service if they did not derive at least commensurate benefit from it.
> If it didn't work they'd close it.

A certain supermarket used to keep the data it got from its loyalty
card scheme on a server that was regularly 'archived'. The amount of
data, and the amount of storage on the server meant that data older
than about six months was only present on the archive tapes. These
tapes were rotated, so that data was only archived for about a year.

So data was collected, stored, archived, and then deleted over a twelve
month rolling period. And that was all that happened to it. It wasn't
searchable, let alone minable. You could, if you were willing to wait a
few hours, and knew the date and the store the data was collected, get
a report generated that told you, in a giant spread sheet, things like
how many tins of beans were sold, and the loyalty card numbers they
were sold to.

If you were really keen, you could go to a separate system and look up
the names and addresses of the cards' owners. One at a time.

This system cost millions to buy and maintain.
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Paul Corfield <aooy65 RemoveThis @dsl.pipex.com> wrote in
news:gd1kq3tmfgfu6gsojgpefr188ll8ftoh7g@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:40:35 -0600, Mark Olson <olsonm RemoveThis @tiny.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> [supermarket loyalty cards]
>>Because they rob you blind if you don't have one? Dunno about where
>>you are, but in the western USA nearly every item at Albertson's et al,
>>is _way_ overpriced unless you use one of the cards. Strangely,
>>they'll happily give you a "loyalty card" (AKA tracking device) at the
>>register without requiring you to fill out the form, and you can bin
>>it on your way out.
>
> I've never come across differential pricing like that in the UK. Sure
> you can earn extra points for purchasing certain products but premium
> prices for no loyalty cards - eek! A bloody dreadful idea. I suppose
> this will be coming to a Wal^h^h^Asda near us sometime soon.

I don't use Somerfield very often. There's one close to my aunt's house and
I pop in there once in a while. The differential pricing annoyed me too.
The thing was dropped some time last year.

I haven't seen any form of loyalty card scheme in a US Walmart or Asda,
BTW.

--
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BMW R1150GS
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Simian wrote:

> Paul Corfield wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:15:29 +0100, Ace <seesig.DeleteThis@ifrance.com> wrote:
> >
> > > And they have a hard enough time making good use of the loyalty
> > > card data anyway - it's all very hit & miss really, and in fact
> > > the main areas in which it's used are to identify spending (i.e.
> > > product) patterns among particular population groups, rather than
> > > attempting to target individual customers.
> >
> > I take your point about the basic targetting process but I wonder if
> > the big guns (i.e. Tesco) really find it that hard. Don't they
> > have a completely separate data division that collates huge
> > quantities of data to generate profiles on customers?
>
> Tesco, at least, send out money off vouchers based on what you have
> purchased when using your loyalty card.
>

"Tescopoly" is a decent read for stuff about this.

--
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On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:29:58 +0000, in
<05jmq3ldbm5rkbg29l4dr5rkfdo7ubu9pa DeleteThis @4ax.com>, Paul Corfield
<aooy65 DeleteThis @dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:15:29 +0100, Ace <seesig DeleteThis @ifrance.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:12:17 +0000, in
>><dh1kq398j38m8fms2aa6f2k9tdaehb9ut6 DeleteThis @4ax.com>, Paul Corfield
>><aooy65 DeleteThis @dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>>>And I don't blame you. I certainly won't be shopping in any supermarket
>>>that does that. However even if you don't have a loyalty card I'm still
>>>convinced that they track you via your debit or credit card number if
>>>you use that as the normal means of payment.
>>
>>Naah, that's just paranioa
>
>Well possibly.
>
>>More to the point is that it wouldn't provide any meaningful data -
>>they wouldn't be able to get (or store) your address just from CC
>>details (data protection act) and as such any information wcouldn't
>>reliably be tied to a customer. Plus, of course, CC numbers change
>>quite frequently, so the typical life-span of such data would only be
>>a couple of years anyway.
>
>But I'm pretty sure that the payment system captures your name from the
>card - how else does it get printed on receipts? It would hardly take a
>lot of effort for a local branch of a store to link my name to some
>other source of name and address data.

You have _no_ idea. Trying to match by name only would be _incredibly_
difficult, especially given different forms of names on different
cards. And just how many John Smith's are there in the UK, do you
think? No, it's such an obviously unworkable approach that they
wouldn't even think about it.

I've worked on Tesco's loyalty card system (albeit some years back)
which, as I said, is mainly used to try and identify spending habits
of population groups, which in turn helps to drive regional and
store-specific stocking policy, based on their customers' profiles.
There is, of course, some individual marketing done, but it's by far
the secondary benefit of the system.

At the other end of things, some companies do attempt the sort of
individual profiling you're alluding to, based on CC spend, but they
can only do so if, like a certain airline I used to work for, they use
their own-branded Card, which gives them access to all the data
therefrom. Even then, trying to match up bookings made on their card
with Flight segments booked, and then changes to said bookings and
indeed use of other cards by the same customer presented me with one
or two interesting challenges. I got their in the end, of course, but
it wasn't the simplest of tasks.

>The reason I believe they can do this is that I got a targeted mailshot
>from Sainsburys and I have no loyalty cards at all.

Where 'targetted' = sent to a mailing list just like any other spam.

>There are also
>several possible branches I can use but the one I had used was the one
>that I was directed to use in the mailshot. I accept I may be adding 2
>plus 2 and getting 5 but it seemed odd to me.

Well, yes, cos 2+2 normally makes 4. But YMMV.

>I take your point about the basic targetting process but I wonder if the
>big guns (i.e. Tesco) really find it that hard.

They would, if they tried it.

> Don't they have a
>completely separate data division that collates huge quantities of data
>to generate profiles on customers?

See above.

>I simply couldn't see a voraciously
>free market yet dominant company wasting money on a data service if they
>did not derive at least commensurate benefit from it. If it didn't work
>they'd close it.

See above for their main benefits.
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platypus wrote:
>
> Wicked Uncle Nigel wrote:
> > And off I wandered, leaving a full trolley and a load of packed
> > carrier bags behind.
> >
> > Haven't been back.
>
> I've vague memories of doing something similar in a pub.

Me too, with darsy, sweller and others. We'd just gone in to a pub at
Spitalfields market so E (for that was her initial) could have a piss
and someone in the group got the wrong idea and ordered a round. She
came back from the bogs before the last pint had been poured so we all
did a runner to the slightly-less-wanky pub across the road where
sweller promptly started throwing beer all over the floor (iirc).

"Free random drinks" ?

--
ogden
sv650 & rgv250
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ogden wrote:
> platypus wrote:
>>
>> Wicked Uncle Nigel wrote:
>>> And off I wandered, leaving a full trolley and a load of packed
>>> carrier bags behind.
>>>
>>> Haven't been back.
>>
>> I've vague memories of doing something similar in a pub.
>
> Me too, with darsy, sweller and others. We'd just gone in to a pub at
> Spitalfields market so E (for that was her initial) could have a piss
> and someone in the group got the wrong idea and ordered a round. She
> came back from the bogs before the last pint had been poured so we all
> did a runner to the slightly-less-wanky pub across the road where
> sweller promptly started throwing beer all over the floor (iirc).

Well, I baled out because of problems I discovered with the service after
I'd placed my beer order. You seem to have sloped in for a crafty piss,
inadvertently ordered beer you didn't want,and then did a runner to avoid
paying for your mistake. Not the same thing at all IMO.
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In message <dh1kq398j38m8fms2aa6f2k9tdaehb9ut6.DeleteThis@4ax.com>, Paul Corfield
<aooy65.DeleteThis@dsl.pipex.com> writes
>And I don't blame you. I certainly won't be shopping in any supermarket
>that does that. However even if you don't have a loyalty card I'm
>still convinced that they track you via your debit or credit card
>number if you use that as the normal means of payment.

And there's me wishing Tesco would track my purchases so that I don't
have to keep hunting for things when I use their online Shopping
Experience.

I (We) have 3 cards between us - all linked. Only thing is that the
main (initial) card has long gone, I suspect it was my Ex's, but he has
his own new one. They only seem to link to purchases from that card
though. The other two accrue the points but never add to the favourites
list.

They keep telling me that is not the case.
--
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(Actually I'm in Zurich this weekend so ignore that!)
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In message <gd1kq3tmfgfu6gsojgpefr188ll8ftoh7g DeleteThis @4ax.com>, Paul Corfield
<aooy65 DeleteThis @dsl.pipex.com> writes
>I've never come across differential pricing like that in the UK. Sure
>you can earn extra points for purchasing certain products but premium
>prices for no loyalty cards - eek! A bloody dreadful idea. I suppose
>this will be coming to a Wal^h^h^Asda near us sometime soon.

Safeway in San Francisco (so I assume they all) do it.

I now have a US Safeway loyalty card, registered to me in London just so
that I got a couple of bottles of wine at the loyalty price. It was
only after I filled out the form that they told me it was for US
customers only so the address was no use to them. I still have the card
- you never know when you'll need it.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
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