My first bike: Helmet & California License Question

curvedog wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:31:58 -0700, Turby wrote:
>
>>> The MSF is in cohoots with the DMV to get the DMV to create a
>>> stupid test that forces experienced riders into the MSF basic
>>> rider
>>> class without allowing them to take the advanced class instead.
>>
>> I took the DMV lollipop test, & passed it, at least a decade before
>> the MSF existed.
>
> The MSF lobbied the DMV to change the dimensions and criteria of the
> keyhole test.
>
> The test you took, and most importantly, the criteria (no foot, no
> stops, no touching of cones, not one inch outside the lines for both
> wheels, both directions of the circle, multiple loops, swerve entry
> and exit, straight-line entry and exit, etc. IS ALL DIFFERENT THAN A
> DECADE AGO.
>
> Expressly due to the MSF!

Now why would MSF lobby California and only California to do that when
in every other state where they've lobbied for a test change they have
been lobbying for the test described here
<http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-training/motorcycle-test/>?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:30:18 -0700, Turby wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:22:14 -0700, Michael Black
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:49:30 -0700, David White wrote:
>>> Why is it so hard to pass the DMV test?? I did it on a Goldwing.
>>
>>I very seriously doubt you did it on anything of the sort.
>
> Not enough respect, obviously. Riding a motorcycle is a skill. You may
> not have mastered it, but many others have.

I think that's the whole point.

The only way to pass the ca dmv driving test is to master the skill of
biking. No other state requires a master to have a license.

The funny thing is you don't even need to take the test to ride legally in
california for an entire year on a permit with no test at all!

Wierd state that Ca.
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

"VirginiaBob" wrote in message

>> Not enough respect, obviously. Riding a motorcycle is a skill. You may
>> not have mastered it, but many others have.
>
> I think that's the whole point.
>
> The only way to pass the ca dmv driving test is to master the skill of
> biking. No other state requires a master to have a license.

Exactly. But they SHOULD. At least, they should require
demonstrated skills to the level of the CA test or similar.
It isn't all THAT hard. The failure rate is not really a measure
of how difficult the test is, but rather how many show up for
it ill-prepared.

One thing I've been wanting to ask all of those who are
bitching here about the "impossible" CA test - how often
do you find an empty parking lot or some such and actually
practice your low-speed manuevering skills? How many
times have you done this in, say, the last six months?

Based on what I see almost every day, with people trying
to wrestle their half-ton cruisers in and out of the lot at the
local supermarkets - I'd have to guess the answers to both
the questions above is "never."

Bob M.
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:16:40 GMT, VirginiaBob
wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:30:18 -0700, Turby wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:22:14 -0700, Michael Black
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:49:30 -0700, David White wrote:
>>>> Why is it so hard to pass the DMV test?? I did it on a Goldwing.
>>>
>>>I very seriously doubt you did it on anything of the sort.
>>
>> Not enough respect, obviously. Riding a motorcycle is a skill. You may
>> not have mastered it, but many others have.
>
>I think that's the whole point.
>
>The only way to pass the ca dmv driving test is to master the skill of
>biking. No other state requires a master to have a license.

I don't agree. I do think it would be hard on a Wing, but as I've
never ridden one, I don't know. I'm sure it's easier on small dirt
bikes. The lollipop is kinda bogus though, because it doesn't test all
those other skills necessary for a competant rider. But every
competant rider should be able to do the lollipop. It just ain't THAT
hard. Being a master rider takes far more than that.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

I took the DMV test in 1978 after riding without a license for 8 years.
I used a Honda CL 175 and passed with no problem. I'm pretty sure that
they have tightened up the judging standard, but the test itself sounds
like it is still the same as what I remember.


--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

The state of California used to have a special "Traffic School" for
motorcycles (alternate to paying a traffic ticket and having it on your
record) that pretty much mirrored what MSF teaches. I took that class
back in 1981 or so and got a great deal out of it. They even taught us
to ride in circles at full lock by regulating our speed using the
clutch. Great stuff. I don't know if this is still available.


--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

barb wrote:
> Paladin wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:13:38 GMT, pinbob
>> wrote:
>>
>> ....
>>
>>> Yes. I know EXACTLY what the California Vehicle Code states about "Lane
>>> Splitting". The answer (drumroll) ... ... ... absolutly nothing!
>>
>> 27803. (a) A driver and any passenger shall wear a safety helmet....
>> (f) This section does not apply to a person operating, or
>> riding as a passenger in, a fully enclosed three-wheeled.....
>>
>> 21714. The driver of a vehicle described in subdivision (f) of
>> Section 27803 shall not do either of the following:
>> (a) Operate the vehicle in any lane established under Section
>> 21655.5 as an exclusive or preferential use lane for high-occupancy
>> vehicles.
>> (b) Operate the vehicle in either of the following:
>> (1) The area on, or immediately adjacent to, the striping or other
>> markers designating adjacent traffic lanes.
>> (2) The area between two or more vehicles that are traveling in
>> adjacent traffic lanes.
>>
>> The California Vehicle Code states that Three-Wheeled "Motorcycles"
>> that are enclosed and wide and heavy may be driven without wearing a
>> motorcycle helmet, and may NOT operate between lanes (splitting) --
>> with the implication that such is legal for other motorcycles.
>> ....
>
> LOL! You probably can't split lanes with a sidecar, either!
>>
>>> The only law about lane sharing is that there isn't a law prohibiting
>>> lane
>>> sharing. The MSF class got it all wrong.
>>> At least, did I get it right?
>>
>> No, the CVC does prohibit lane sharing by a single class of
>> motorcycles.
>>
>>
>
>

Might be a good way to get rid of the mother-in-law.


--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

J. Clarke wrote this on Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:34:02 -0400. My reply is
below.

> Why would anyone repeat the BRC instead of taking the ERC?

Probably because in most locales the BRC is offered more often. If it
is difficult to find a seat in the BRC, it's nearly impossible for the
ERC. It's good strategy to join a group that will charter a location
and an instructor once a year rather than putting your name on a
waiting list at the nearest vocational school.

--
... Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
... 1979 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (Geraldine)
... Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX
... 59° — Wind Calm
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:34:02 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

>Why would anyone repeat the BRC instead of taking the ERC?

It's been entirely too long since I've done either, but the last time
I took the ERC, I thought the BRC was more valuable, in spite of the
novice stuff.

I'm tempted to take it, just to see how much the course has changed,
and to see if all the complaints are valid.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:35:59 -0700, David White wrote:

>>> The only law about lane sharing is that there isn't a law prohibiting lane
>>> sharing. The MSF class got it all wrong.
>>>
>>> At least, did I get it right?
>>
>> No, the CVC does prohibit lane sharing by a single class of
>> motorcycles.
>
> You are right. But, it is a class that you do not need an M1 endorsement.
>>
>>

Interesting! I thought he had us there; that was close; but if you don't
need an M1 endorsement; then you don't need to take the riding test; and if
you don't need to take the riding test; then it doesn't apply.
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

>> Why would anyone repeat the BRC instead of taking the ERC?

I'm not sure if I'm jumping in the middle of the thread but one reason
you'd need to repeat the BRC is if your out of state license expired and
you had to get a new motorcycle license.

At least in California, you can not apply the ERC for licensing even if you
passed with 20 out of 20. You still have to take the BRC or the keyhole.

Why? It's all about money. Nothing to do with logic. Or safety. Or reason.
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

Johnney Rocket wrote:
>>> Why would anyone repeat the BRC instead of taking the ERC?
>
> I'm not sure if I'm jumping in the middle of the thread but one
> reason
> you'd need to repeat the BRC is if your out of state license expired
> and you had to get a new motorcycle license.

And you have to do this more than once in a lifetime? If so really
should check your mail more often. If your out of state license
expired then having to take the test or the class is your own damned
fault for letting your license expire.

> At least in California, you can not apply the ERC for licensing even
> if you passed with 20 out of 20. You still have to take the BRC or
> the keyhole.

So? That's not reason to repeat the BRC over and over again with such
regularity that you can compare content from year to year. And what's
your objection to practicing the keyhole until you can do it
adequately? Oh, I know, it's so hard that a circus performer couldn't
pass it on a unicycle.

> Why? It's all about money. Nothing to do with logic. Or safety. Or
> reason.

So tell us, if that is so, why is it that the MSF has in California
and _only_ in California lobbied to have this supposedly impossible
keyhole test implemented and in the other 29 states and several
nations in which they have succesfully lobbied to have their test
implemented it was the MOST or Alternate MOST they wanted?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question 

Bill Palmer wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:35:22 -0700, David White wrote:
>> If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
>> "basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
>
> I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I took both
> the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice on my Honda
> CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my license).
>
> To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
> students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
> the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.
>

Just so you know , Bill, Of the 24 students that started at our range
this last week-end, 6 failed. That's 25%.
 >> Stay informed about: My first bike: Helmet & California License Question