K&N air filter controversy?

"Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores" <caesar DeleteThis @casaputana.it> wrote in message
news:85reuv8iqq3d9i8aaf9pjfv0dntbs2i1m3@4ax.com...
 > Before you start whining about my lack of bandwidth, it's hourly on
 > geocities so try again later if ya can't see the pics.

Jeeze... I thought you were going to tell us about how Saddam had been
captured by the Kurds, drugged and kept in a hole, and then fingered after
the Kurds cut a deal with the US. Instead, you are talking about origami
filters versus K&N.

If you are concerned about the stuff that comes though and deposits itself
on the airbox, why don't you run grease all over the walls of the airbox
like on a dirt bike?

 >--
Peckham<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

 > Before tossing it in favor of a paper element I figured why not try to
 > re-engineer it?

Nice presentation... but to beat K&N you must prove to stop more
particles and prove to flow more air...

Larry L
94 RC45 #2
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it... the extended warranty in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
Yank and bank your brains loose...
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/" target="_blank">http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores <caesar DeleteThis @casaputana.it>
wrote in news:85reuv8iqq3d9i8aaf9pjfv0dntbs2i1m3@4ax.com:

 > Before you start whining about my lack of bandwidth, it's
 > hourly on geocities so try again later if ya can't see the
 > pics.
 >
 > For the most part I never really liked K&N airfilters. You
 > have to clean them, which sucks and IMHO they seem to pass
 > too much dirt. I mean they look ok at first...
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats1.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats1.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > Until you hold one up to the sky, and literally SEE the
 > light!
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats2.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats2.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > Yep, those little white specks are actual voids where light
 > spills through. K&N can writhe all it wants, but it doesn't
 > appear to be putting up too much of a fight against
 > ultrafine grit with holes that big does it?

<SNIP>

*All* filters let some dirt through. Filters are rated by
their filtration ability in the size of particles they filter
out. If you want perfection then go HEPA, but then you are
pulling 3" to 5" of static pressure. Hospital grade filters
are rated at 90% to 95% efficient, filter out 99.9% of
bacterium in the air once partly loaded up. (Filters get more
efficient as they load up.) Even then they start out at about
0.75" static, replaced at 1.5" to 2" static.

Your internal combustion engine air intake filter is probably
somewhere between 15% to 25% efficient. Larger dust particles
that have sufficient inertia to stick to cylinder walls are
filtered out. The lighter stuff is low inertia, enters the
combustion chamber and passes out the tail pipe, with a very
low probability of sticking to cylinder walls.

OEM has purposely selected the media filter they use, as a
compromise between restriction and filter efficiency. If one
wanted to allow more air through, it would be better to
increase the filter area than to go to a lower restrictive
media with less filtering capability.

With luv from your favorite gun luving, pickem up truck and
H-D admirin', right wing cowboy. - HPT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:27:12 -0000, High Plains Thumper
<HPT RemoveThis @SingleCylinderBikes.com> wrote:

 >*All* filters let some dirt through.

No sheet? My point is that the K&N's let MORE dirt through than stock,
even after slapping on a pre-filter.

 >Your internal combustion engine air intake filter is probably
 >somewhere between 15% to 25% efficient.

Ha! That's not what K&N would like you to believe. They claim 99.7%
efficicency or something like that. Perhaps... if the test dirt is
schoolyard marbles

 >OEM has purposely selected the media filter they use, as a
 >compromise between restriction and filter efficiency. If one
 >wanted to allow more air through, it would be better to
 >increase the filter area than to go to a lower restrictive
 >media with less filtering capability.

Ding! K&N and foam filters have LESS restriction than a paper filter
and WAY less surface area. This alone should tell you what's up.

K&N counters these claims by saying their oiled gauze is vastly
superior to other approaches. I say malarkey, and my little test
proves it.

To add insult to injury the pressure differential between paper and
K&N is minimal at best and during the service life of a paper filter
will actually become more restrictive as the dirt piles on.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:00:28 GMT, Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores wrote:

 >On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:27:12 -0000, High Plains Thumper
 ><HPT.RemoveThis@SingleCylinderBikes.com> wrote:
 >
  >>*All* filters let some dirt through.
 >
 >No sheet? My point is that the K&N's let MORE dirt through than stock,
 >even after slapping on a pre-filter.
 >
Your test was anything but scientific. All you did was prove that by over
oiling your filter you could get oil and any dirt it contained to stick to
the walls of the air box.

 >
 >K&N counters these claims by saying their oiled gauze is vastly
 >superior to other approaches. I say malarkey, and my little test
 >proves it.
 >
You should have tested the particle size of the dirt that got through the
filter. I've got 70,000 miles on my 97 VFR750 and it's had a K&N filter in
the air box since about 5,000 miles. No internal engine problems so far.
I've only cleaned it 3 times since I installed it. I'm not saying that the
filter doesn't let dirt though like you claim, I'm just saying that what does
get through is too small to harm the engine and hence doesn't matter.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores <caesar RemoveThis @casaputana.it>
wrote in news:th7fuv4p5rt3qjke9jv54j8mnlt642t4l1@4ax.com:

 > On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:27:12 -0000, High Plains Thumper
 > <HPT RemoveThis @SingleCylinderBikes.com> wrote:
 >
  >>*All* filters let some dirt through.
 >
 > No sheet? My point is that the K&N's let MORE dirt through
 > than stock, even after slapping on a pre-filter.
 >
  >>Your internal combustion engine air intake filter is
  >>probably somewhere between 15% to 25% efficient.
 >
 > Ha! That's not what K&N would like you to believe. They
 > claim 99.7% efficicency or something like that. Perhaps...
 > if the test dirt is schoolyard marbles
 >
  >>OEM has purposely selected the media filter they use, as a
  >>compromise between restriction and filter efficiency. If
  >>one wanted to allow more air through, it would be better to
  >>increase the filter area than to go to a lower restrictive
  >>media with less filtering capability.
 >
 > Ding! K&N and foam filters have LESS restriction than a
 > paper filter and WAY less surface area. This alone should
 > tell you what's up.
 >
 > K&N counters these claims by saying their oiled gauze is
 > vastly superior to other approaches. I say malarkey, and my
 > little test proves it.
 >
 > To add insult to injury the pressure differential between
 > paper and K&N is minimal at best and during the service life
 > of a paper filter will actually become more restrictive as
 > the dirt piles on.

As the paper filter loads up, it becomes more efficient, but at a
cost of decrease air flow capability. You would be better off to
replace your OEM or OEM rated replacement air filter more often.
- HPT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

"Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores" <caesar.RemoveThis@casaputana.it> wrote in message
news:85reuv8iqq3d9i8aaf9pjfv0dntbs2i1m3@4ax.com...
 > Before you start whining about my lack of bandwidth, it's hourly on
 > geocities so try again later if ya can't see the pics.
 >
 >
 > For the most part I never really liked K&N airfilters. You have to
 > clean them, which sucks and IMHO they seem to pass too much dirt. I
 > mean they look ok at first...
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats1.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats1.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > Until you hold one up to the sky, and literally SEE the light!
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats2.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/pleats2.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > Yep, those little white specks are actual voids where light spills
 > through. K&N can writhe all it wants, but it doesn't appear to be
 > putting up too much of a fight against ultrafine grit with holes that
 > big does it?
 >
 > Before tossing it in favor of a paper element I figured why not try to
 > re-engineer it? Since they're cheap with the filtration media to make
 > the big flow numbers I decided to make my own pre-filter. Got some
 > thick cotton gauze at the drug store, cut two layers to size, sprayed
 > it with K&N air filter oil and installed it on the "dirty" side.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/apres.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/apres.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > As you can see it's tucked in every so often to keep it in place and
 > of course NOT on the "clean" side where the engine would suck it right
 > off! Here's what it looks like afterwards when held up to the light.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/stuffed2.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/stuffed2.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > So far so good! No more voids or see through. Now for the real test...
 > I reinstalled the whole mess and for the life of me couldn't tell if
 > there was any performance loss from having the additional prefilter.
 > About 4,000 miles later I was wondering how the whole thing was
 > holding up. Popping open the airbox revealed the following.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/after.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/destinyim/after.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > The pre-filter apparently caught quite a bit of dirt yet underneath
 > appeared fairly clean. The dark spot is the dirt just beginning to
 > show through, but there's still a ways to go. The K&N filter itself
 > looked 100% clean.
 >
 > Out of curiosity I decided to clean the filter anyways even though it
 > didn't seem to need it. When I sprayed it with the cleaner and dunked
 > it into more of the same quite a bit of black liquid came leaking out.
 > So despite the clean appearance, the superfine particles are still
 > there. Good sign right? It's catching the smaller stuff the prefilter
 > missed.
 >
 > Then I took a look in the airbox. There was a little oil spray on the
 > back wall where the airflow hits and then turns around to enter the
 > throttle bodies. When I got out a white tissue and wiped it... WHOA!
 > Black sooty graphite like dirt was all over the place. I wiped the
 > clean side of the box in several locations, each time coming up with
 > the same result... red oil mixed in with ultrafine black particles.
 > The throttle body throats were clean, but then again given the
 > boundary layer turbulence I doubt any amount of dirt would have a
 > chance to cling to them.
 >
 > So IOW, K&N airfilters apparently do not filter! Some will argue it's
 > just the oil mess catching particles that go unnoticed with dry paper
 > filters, but I don't think so. The R6 had an oiled foam unit and I
 > never once noticed any such grit on the inside of the box.
 >
 > Conclusion:
 > Paper filters are a "go-nogo" situation. Either the particle can pass
 > through or it doesn't. Since the voids are much smaller than foam or
 > cotton gauze it will inherently catch stuff that other filters miss.
 > Since it has many more pleats in it than the K&N or a flat foam
 > filter, the increased surface area allows it to capture more crap than
 > any aftermarket filter before it clogs.
 >
 > K&N argues on its own website that the cotton fibers have "micro-sized
 > hairs" which capture ultrafine particles. Personally I don't buy this.
 > When the engine is honking at redline and sucking in tons of air,
 > these hairs would be flapping in the wind catching diddly. Indeed
 > despite the lack of voids after the mod, it seems at speed the cotton
 > media gets distorted and allows particles to flow though. I also think
 > that the runny oil they use simply allows already trapped particles to
 > be pulled off into the engine at higher rpms.
 >
 > Something to think about if you want longevity out of your motor. I am
 > deifnately going back to paper filters!
 >
 > Here's an interesting link from some crazy guy that actually tested
 > and compared a bunch of air filters in a Mazda Miata.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm</font</a>>
 >
 > He came to a similar conclusion. Paper filters best and the pressure
 > differential between aftermarket and stock is a negligable .2 psi
 > difference.


You did well...

I used to get retained by the semi conductor and nuclear weapons industries
to design particle containment and filtering systems. .. The paper and
compressed fiberglass media (HEPA) filters will trap particles much *smaller
than thier pore size. By means of electro static attraction of the
particles to the edges of the pores in the media. Pore sizes the size of
the trapped particles will result in filters clogging way too fast.

In the ultra clean clean semi conductor fabs for instance we can tolerate no
more than 10 particles 0.3 microns in size (1/100 the dia of a human hair)
per cubic foot...thats *clean. Amazingly though if we count particles in
the room below .3 microns...we find thousands of them per cubic foot....
particles btw below 0.12 microns in size begin to behave like gasses and
will travel sideways in an air stream.

If we had filters with actual pore sizes at .12 micros they wouldnt last a
week in many applications.


Certain types of particles are trapped in this fashion, electrostatically.
Others carbon particles for instance are the single most difficult to trap
as they they tend to be electrically uncharged and unchargeable. so they
shoot right through these types of filters.

Fortunately many of these ultra fine particles are not abrasive so do not
harm and engine...that would be K and N's defense no doubt...

Accordingly the black indication you got inside the air box is not
necessarily a bad indicator...however Hoyt McKagen who does a lot motor work
for 30 years resports that motors with high wear are closely associated with
the K and N filters.... the light you see past those filters is through
holes too large to act as electrostatic traps...they are relying on an
inertial impingment mechanism then containment by the oil. which as you say
compared to paper is a little dicy.

It was interesting to hear that performance didnt suffer noticeably with the
prefilter you fit... it should have suffered as net compression is a direct
function of intake manifold pressure, and given a much less than 100%
efficient compression cycle. slight differences in manifold pressure make a
big difference (as noticed when running at higher elevations)..

..Id estimate from my experience with filters that the prefilter you fit, dry
would have cost you at least 0.25" to 0.5" water column loss in intake
manifold pressure...and double that if oiled... the figure rising as the
filter loaded. That would compound to a 10 psi loss in compression and
approx a 7% decrease in hp................ except.

A saving grace and maybe why you didnt notice a decrease in HP would be that
these figures would only hold for wide open operation...

at less than full throttle, you are regulating the intake pressure lower
anyway so a restrictive filter would not make any difference.

In other words you would only notice a drop in HP at WFO....


Phil Scott<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

"Chris Stumpf" <cstumpf RemoveThis @monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:pfghzcszbazbhgupbz.hqbr1i0.pminews@news.dslextreme.com...
 > On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:00:28 GMT, Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores
wrote:
 >
  > >On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:27:12 -0000, High Plains Thumper
  > ><HPT RemoveThis @SingleCylinderBikes.com> wrote:
  > >
   > >>*All* filters let some dirt through.
  > >
  > >No sheet? My point is that the K&N's let MORE dirt through than stock,
  > >even after slapping on a pre-filter.
  > >
 > Your test was anything but scientific. All you did was prove that by over
 > oiling your filter you could get oil and any dirt it contained to stick to
 > the walls of the air box.
 >
  > >
  > >K&N counters these claims by saying their oiled gauze is vastly
  > >superior to other approaches. I say malarkey, and my little test
  > >proves it.
  > >
 > You should have tested the particle size of the dirt that got through the
 > filter. I've got 70,000 miles on my 97 VFR750 and it's had a K&N filter
in
 > the air box since about 5,000 miles. No internal engine problems so far.
 > I've only cleaned it 3 times since I installed it. I'm not saying that
the
 > filter doesn't let dirt though like you claim, I'm just saying that what
does
 > get through is too small to harm the engine and hence doesn't matter.

Yer points are well taken....except that your personal experience might be
irrelevant...if for instance you live in the green moist irish country side
you could run a section of your screen door and get by just fine .... like
the old limey bikes used to run over intake bells.

If you ran that rig through Bakersfield Calif/ over the hill to Santa
barbara in a sand storm your motor would be trash in 50 miles.

Phil Scott


 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

"Larry xlax Lovisone" <netters2.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FE7F959.9090804@comcast.net...
 >
 >
  > > Before tossing it in favor of a paper element I figured why not try to
  > > re-engineer it?
 >
 > Nice presentation... but to beat K&N you must prove to stop more
 > particles and prove to flow more air...

Looking at K and N tests as I recall revealed that they were using fat dirt


Phil Scott


 >
 > Larry L
 > 94 RC45 #2
 > Have a wheelie NICE day...
 > Lean & Mean it... the extended warranty in every corner of your life...
 > If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
 > V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
 > 1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
 > Yank and bank your brains loose...
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/</font" target="_blank">http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/</font</a>>
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/</font" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/</font</a>>
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

 >From: Demetrius XXIV

 >Then I took a look in the airbox. There was a little oil spray on the
 >back wall where the airflow hits and then turns around to enter the
 >throttle bodies. When I got out a white tissue and wiped it... WHOA!
 >Black sooty graphite like dirt was all over the place. I wiped the
 >clean side of the box in several locations, each time coming up with
 >the same result... red oil mixed in with ultrafine black particles.
 >The throttle body throats were clean, but then again given the
 >boundary layer turbulence I doubt any amount of dirt would have a
 >chance to cling to them.

You might want to check to see if your crankcase is being vented into the
airbox. On my Duc it was for my initial ride home before I stopped at Pep boys
and bought a crankcase filter/breather. This makes a terrible mess of the
throttle bodies. I learned that from my last one.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores wrote:
 >
 >


You'll troll on any and every topic, won't you?



It's not the gauze that catches the dirt; it's the oil.
The gauze filter can catch dirt as the air passes through
the media. It's the same principle used in oil bath air
filters that can still be found in over the road trucks.
They're messier to deal with, but require only cleaning
and fresh oil. They appeal to people who use Zippos.


Paper filters are clean and sanitary. No mess. Just toss
the whole filter in the landfill after use. They appeal
to people who have a "disposable" mentality. Like those that
use Bic lighters and ride R6s.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

"Phil Scott" <philscott.DeleteThis@philscott.net> wrote in
news:bs959o$aj9$1@news.tdl.com:

 > If you ran that rig through Bakersfield Calif/ over the hill to
 > Santa barbara in a sand storm your motor would be trash in 50
 > miles.

Most desert racers use K&N air filters, if you read or follow
independent tests, they filter BETTER than the OEM specs.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy? 

In article <85reuv8iqq3d9i8aaf9pjfv0dntbs2i1m3 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Demetrius XXIV and the Gladiatores <caesar DeleteThis @casaputana.it> wrote:

[big snip]
 >...Paper filters best and the pressure
 >differential between aftermarket and stock is a negligable .2 psi
 >difference.

The K&N Air Filter thread rears its head on the IBMWR (Internet BMW
Riders) list server every now and then. Those perpetually tinkering
BMW riders are always looking for little things to increase efficiency
(yeah, I know the best way to get 30% more power out of a BMW bike is
to trade it in for an Asian bike .

Aaaaaany way, dyno tests have been done over and over on BMW bikes,
and at least with those bikes, K&N filters do not add any power. In
one test, a garage dynoed a BMW bike with an OEM paper filter, and
re-dynoed it with half the filter's surface taped up. They got
identical dyno results. This shows that even with a 50% reduction in
air flow, the engine's air supply is not sufficiently reduced to show
up as a power loss on a dyno. They repeated the test with NO air
filter installed (zero intake resistance) and got no appreciable
difference in the dyno results. In the case of BMW bikes, one can be
certain that adding a K&N air filter (as compared to OEM parts) will
not increase power, but will increase dirt and gum entering the engine.

I've concluded that motorcycle manufacturers are mostly pretty smart
guys, especially the makers of sports bikes. They have to be, because
the "King Of The Hill" is a celebrity while #2 is an relative unknown.
With 2004's crop of awe-inspiring sports bikes from Honda, Kawasaki,
Suzuki, and Yamaha, I doubt there is a single manufacturer who hasn't
tuned the hell out of their bike in stock form.

One thing we can be certain of is that K&N air filters make a bike
_look_ faster, just like loud pipes make a bike _sound_ faster.
Independent dyno results may not give you the answer you'd hoped to
get.

-Steve Makohin | Reply to wateredg DeleteThis @interlog.com
2000 BMW R1100S/ABS | (hotmail acct is spam catcher)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: K&N air filter controversy?