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Next: Comments on the World Ducati Championships
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Since: Jun 23, 2003 Posts: 453
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:01 am
Post subject: WSB to change rules! Archived from groups: rec>motorcycles>racing (more info?)
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Well, even I was surprised about WSB's announcement today. Unbelievable
stuff, and here's what Paulo Flammini had to say:
"Today's events in the British Superbike series at Brands Hatch bring into
sharp focus issues with the current rules regarding machine eligibility and
allowable modification in the Superbike class, in World Superbike as well as
some of the prominent national championship series. It has become clear that
the balance has shifted in recent years toward one class of machinery, and
that is having a significant effect on the viability of these series as
Superbike true to its tradition as a class, which was in the process of
establishing itself as the premier roadracing class from both a fan and
manufacturer's perspective.
"The concern is the performance of the new 1000cc four cylinder machines,
and the Suzuki win at Brands today points out the dominance that machine has
shown this year, its first in Superbike. That win was the fourth for a four
cylinder machine in BSB in the last year and a half, a startling level of
domination. Ducati, who has supported Superbike everywhere since the
beginning, has won only 55 of the last 60 races in BSB over the last three
years. That could be excused because of the lack of participation of the
other twin manufacturers in that series, but that glosses over deeper
issues. In the AMA, where a twin has won only once this year and where
Ducati has been banned from the series in the last week [ed. - denied by the
AMA] , it is clear what can happen when the rules become terribly out of
balance.
"In World Superbike this year the situation has slipped tenuously close to
falling into the same trap, with the new Suzuki actually leading races on
occasion and finishing on the podium. One could hide one's head in the sand
and state that Ducati has won every race this year, that twins have won over
50 races in a row and every race but one over the last two and a half years,
but that would be denying the very real issues that lie just under the
surface. It was expected that the experiment with restrictors this year
would show that a competitive balance could be maintained in this manner,
but now we have serious doubts about that.
"It is our intent to revise the rules that will govern World Superbike next
year and beyond. There have been many ideas proposed, and none have been
finalized to this point. Among those that have merit in my eyes are the
proposition that all modifications to all engine configurations are to be
allowed equally, but that all engines will be allowed to use only two spark
plugs in total. Another idea is to restrict tire usage, allowing four
cylinder machines to run only narrower tires, perhaps no more than 120mm in
width on the rear. It has also been suggested that fours should run rain
tires in dry conditions and slicks when it's wet, and that idea has merit
but presents certain safety issues. We are considering allowing them to run
only 85 octane pump gas, and only two gallons of it per race. There has been
discussion of requiring one rider per two cylinders on each machine, making
it a requirement for the fours to carry a passenger. But this has created
issues for the Foggy Petronas team. The proposed rules would allow three
cylinder machines to carry a dwarf, but Fogarty has claimed cultural issues
with this solution in his native Britain, something that would surface with
predictably negative results after the first highside.
"WSB will finalize its decision on proposed rules shortly, and then they
will be reviewed and voted on by the teams shortly after. To maintain
viability of the process, each manufacturer currently involved on the series
will get one vote per rider currently entered in the entire series. That
will allow two votes for Suzuki, two for Foggy Petronas, one for Yamaha, two
for Kawasaki, and twenty three for Ducati. We promise to fix Superbike, at
the world championship level and below. That is our mission."
Unbelievable, crazy stuff... >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Sep 26, 2003 Posts: 66
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Mark N" wrote in message
> Well, even I was surprised about WSB's announcement today. Unbelievable
> stuff, and here's what Paulo Flammini had to say:
It's about time. We've known this situation to be probelmatic for a while.
> "Today's events in the British Superbike series at Brands Hatch bring into
> sharp focus issues with the current rules regarding machine eligibility
and
> allowable modification in the Superbike class, in World Superbike as well
as
> some of the prominent national championship series. It has become clear
that
> the balance has shifted in recent years toward one class of machinery, and
> that is having a significant effect on the viability of these series as
> Superbike true to its tradition as a class, which was in the process of
> establishing itself as the premier roadracing class from both a fan and
> manufacturer's perspective.
Ah, so something is to be done about Ducati??
> "The concern is the performance of the new 1000cc four cylinder machines,
> and the Suzuki win at Brands today points out the dominance that machine
has
> shown this year, its first in Superbike. That win was the fourth for a
four
> cylinder machine in BSB in the last year and a half, a startling level of
> domination.
Oh...wait. "Startling"?
> Ducati, who has supported Superbike everywhere since the
> beginning, has won only 55 of the last 60 races in BSB over the last three
> years.
"Only"
> "In World Superbike this year the situation has slipped tenuously close to
> falling into the same trap, with the new Suzuki actually leading races on
> occasion and finishing on the podium.
OMG! NO! What is Suzuki thinking? LEADING Races? FINISHING? On the
PODIUM!?? Don't they know how this works? Don't they understand? Something
Must Be Done! They've been found out!
> One could hide one's head in the sand
> and state that Ducati has won every race this year, that twins have won
over
> 50 races in a row and every race but one over the last two and a half
years,
> but that would be denying the very real issues that lie just under the
> surface.
Yeah, the Suzuki is on the cusp of just breaking free and running away with
the rest of the series. On the verge of finishing not just on the podium,
not just at the top of the podium, but alone on the podium as no other rider
wants to be up there with Lavilla after he puts them down 5 laps. Serious
power in the Suzuki. This Is A Real Problem.
> "It is our intent to revise the rules that will govern World Superbike
next
> year and beyond. There have been many ideas proposed, and none have been
> finalized to this point. Among those that have merit in my eyes are the
> proposition that all modifications to all engine configurations are to be
> allowed equally, but that all engines will be allowed to use only two
spark
> plugs in total.
Won't matter, Suzuki will use special titanium tipped plugs coated with
Strontium-90. Once they work out the bugs, they'll be able to work with just
one plug. I wouldn't get behind it, though.
> Another idea is to restrict tire usage, allowing four
> cylinder machines to run only narrower tires, perhaps no more than 120mm
in
> width on the rear.
This won't work either. Factory Suzuki teams practice routinely at Suzuka
using modified 125 GP racers stuffed with the GSXR 1000 motors. They find
that if they rub a glue stick on the tire before the race, that they can get
50+ hard laps out of Suzuka. These aren't record setting laps because
they're unofficial, but the times are there. Heck, all the extra weight of
these big meaty tires is just holding the Suzuki back. We all know this.
> It has also been suggested that fours should run rain
> tires in dry conditions and slicks when it's wet, and that idea has merit
> but presents certain safety issues.
It's only a safety issue for those who don't train in it. In those Suzuka
sessions, they routinely dump old motor oil on the track to keep the riders
on their toes. But only at night, when they're practicing without
headlights.
> We are considering allowing them to run
> only 85 octane pump gas, and only two gallons of it per race.
It's about time. They've been wanting to take the extra weight of the 2
gallons of gas that they don't need and move it to the bottom of the bike as
lead ballast.
> There has been
> discussion of requiring one rider per two cylinders on each machine,
making
> it a requirement for the fours to carry a passenger. But this has created
> issues for the Foggy Petronas team. The proposed rules would allow three
> cylinder machines to carry a dwarf, but Fogarty has claimed cultural
issues
> with this solution in his native Britain, something that would surface
with
> predictably negative results after the first highside.
>
> "WSB will finalize its decision on proposed rules shortly, and then they
> will be reviewed and voted on by the teams shortly after. To maintain
> viability of the process, each manufacturer currently involved on the
series
> will get one vote per rider currently entered in the entire series. That
> will allow two votes for Suzuki, two for Foggy Petronas, one for Yamaha,
two
> for Kawasaki, and twenty three for Ducati. We promise to fix Superbike, at
> the world championship level and below. That is our mission."
It's nice to know that They're On It. That they won't let the series just go
to pot because of an upstart manufacturer abusing the rules. This is a Great
Thing. I'll be excited to see where it takes us.
Go Paulo Go!
Regards,
Will Hartung
(willh@msoft.com) >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Jun 20, 2003 Posts: 702
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:59 pm
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Mark N wrote:
>Well, even I was surprised about WSB's announcement today. Unbelievable
>stuff, and here's what Paulo Flammini had to say:
I wondered what had happened to "Satire By Ohlin". Hadn't seen one for
ages and was missing it.
--
Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond RemoveThis @voidstar.com
Webmaster: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.ecademy.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ecademy.com/</a>
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M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Sep 22, 2003 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I read the transcribed press release on another site and though the OP
had most of it right these details were omitted:
-fours must use traditional GP style push starts
-any machine running 3 or more cylinders must employ "bank angle
sensors" which will cut the ignition at no more than 5 degrees of lean
-homologation rules dictate that any manufactorer electing to run 3 or
more cylinders must produce 1,000,000,000,000 machines with race kits
being limited to hospitality pins, paddock jackets and other WSBK
approved livery >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Jun 24, 2003 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:42 am
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<my ng server has gone haywired so i didn't the original thread>
was that for real??!!
especially the bits on the tyres:
"Another idea is to restrict tire usage, allowing four cylinder machines
to run only narrower tires, perhaps no more than 120mm in width on the
rear. It has also been suggested that fours should run rain tires in dry
conditions and slicks when it's wet, and that idea has merit but
presents certain safety issues"
a more plausiable idea would have been bringing the whole concept back
to its original root. and that's street bikes. modification is free
except that the final total cost should be restricted to a capped price,
something like $250,000. not to mention parts used must be readily
available to the public. this will enable privateer teams to a
competitive level. factory teams can cut down on costs and bikes raced
over the weekend can be readily purchased on the monday. what do you
guys think?
Julian Bond wrote:
>
>> Well, even I was surprised about WSB's announcement today. Unbelievable
>> stuff, and here's what Paulo Flammini had to say:
>
>
> I wondered what had happened to "Satire By Ohlin". Hadn't seen one for
> ages and was missing it.
> >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Jun 24, 2003 Posts: 34
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Mark N" wrote:
>The concern is the performance of the new 1000cc four cylinder machines,
>and the Suzuki win at Brands today points out the dominance that machine has
>shown this year, its first in Superbike. That win was the fourth for a four
>cylinder machine in BSB in the last year and a half, a startling level of
>domination. Ducati, who has supported Superbike everywhere since the
>beginning, has won only 55 of the last 60 races in BSB over the last three
>years. That could be excused because of the lack of participation of the
>other twin manufacturers in that series
I know that you are only writing some gross irony, but in fact with this
last line, you got the real problem.
What SBK officers should really start to work for is to attract other
European manufacturers in the series.
Fours in fact mean japanese bikes. And who does really want a japanese
bike? They are like whores, men go with them just because they are cheap.
But everyone who has the money preferes a Euro bike.
The future of WSB (and other national SB championhip) should be trying to
rebuild the great situation that was in the golden age of motorbiking: the
early '50s. Probably the best year of top racing ever was 1954, when
Norton, AJS, Gilera, Guzzi and MV were competing in the 500 class with at
least 3 factory bikes each.
Now, some of these manufacturers do not exist any more and others of them
do not build big sport bikes.
However, there are other top bike manufacturers that have twin or cube
bikes that could enter the SB championships. I think of Triumph, BMW and a
lot of other italian manufacturers (first of all Aprilia should come back)
PaOlo Flammini and co. should find a way to attract those manufacturers in
their championships instead of doing anything to favour boring jap bikes. >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Jun 24, 2003 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Excellent ideas all!!
Perhaps forcing the Japanese Fours to carry passengers is the Best.
As long as the passengers are selected by people with the names "Claudio or
""Corrado"
Ciao
Dan Roberts
"Mark N" wrote in message
> Well, even I was surprised about WSB's announcement today. Unbelievable
> stuff, and here's what Paulo Flammini had to say:
>
> "Today's events in the British Superbike series at Brands Hatch bring into
> sharp focus issues with the current rules regarding machine eligibility
and
> allowable modification in the Superbike class, in World Superbike as well
as
> some of the prominent national championship series. It has become clear
that
> the balance has shifted in recent years toward one class of machinery, and
> that is having a significant effect on the viability of these series as
> Superbike true to its tradition as a class, which was in the process of
> establishing itself as the premier roadracing class from both a fan and
> manufacturer's perspective.
>
> "The concern is the performance of the new 1000cc four cylinder machines,
> and the Suzuki win at Brands today points out the dominance that machine
has
> shown this year, its first in Superbike. That win was the fourth for a
four
> cylinder machine in BSB in the last year and a half, a startling level of
> domination. Ducati, who has supported Superbike everywhere since the
> beginning, has won only 55 of the last 60 races in BSB over the last three
> years. That could be excused because of the lack of participation of the
> other twin manufacturers in that series, but that glosses over deeper
> issues. In the AMA, where a twin has won only once this year and where
> Ducati has been banned from the series in the last week [ed. - denied by
the
> AMA] , it is clear what can happen when the rules become terribly out of
> balance.
>
> "In World Superbike this year the situation has slipped tenuously close to
> falling into the same trap, with the new Suzuki actually leading races on
> occasion and finishing on the podium. One could hide one's head in the
sand
> and state that Ducati has won every race this year, that twins have won
over
> 50 races in a row and every race but one over the last two and a half
years,
> but that would be denying the very real issues that lie just under the
> surface. It was expected that the experiment with restrictors this year
> would show that a competitive balance could be maintained in this manner,
> but now we have serious doubts about that.
>
> "It is our intent to revise the rules that will govern World Superbike
next
> year and beyond. There have been many ideas proposed, and none have been
> finalized to this point. Among those that have merit in my eyes are the
> proposition that all modifications to all engine configurations are to be
> allowed equally, but that all engines will be allowed to use only two
spark
> plugs in total. Another idea is to restrict tire usage, allowing four
> cylinder machines to run only narrower tires, perhaps no more than 120mm
in
> width on the rear. It has also been suggested that fours should run rain
> tires in dry conditions and slicks when it's wet, and that idea has merit
> but presents certain safety issues. We are considering allowing them to
run
> only 85 octane pump gas, and only two gallons of it per race. There has
been
> discussion of requiring one rider per two cylinders on each machine,
making
> it a requirement for the fours to carry a passenger. But this has created
> issues for the Foggy Petronas team. The proposed rules would allow three
> cylinder machines to carry a dwarf, but Fogarty has claimed cultural
issues
> with this solution in his native Britain, something that would surface
with
> predictably negative results after the first highside.
>
> "WSB will finalize its decision on proposed rules shortly, and then they
> will be reviewed and voted on by the teams shortly after. To maintain
> viability of the process, each manufacturer currently involved on the
series
> will get one vote per rider currently entered in the entire series. That
> will allow two votes for Suzuki, two for Foggy Petronas, one for Yamaha,
two
> for Kawasaki, and twenty three for Ducati. We promise to fix Superbike, at
> the world championship level and below. That is our mission."
>
> Unbelievable, crazy stuff...
>
>
>
>
> >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Jun 24, 2003 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 3:26 pm
Post subject: Re: WSB to change rules! [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Perhaps instead of 125, 250 and 1000 the FIM should go to a format like
Single(cc limit), twin(cc limit), unlimited?
"Mark N" wrote in message
> Well, even I was surprised about WSB's announcement today. Unbelievable
> stuff, and here's what Paulo Flammini had to say:
>
> "Today's events in the British Superbike series at Brands Hatch bring into
> sharp focus issues with the current rules regarding machine eligibility
and
> allowable modification in the Superbike class, in World Superbike as well
as
> some of the prominent national championship series. It has become clear
that
> the balance has shifted in recent years toward one class of machinery, and
> that is having a significant effect on the viability of these series as
> Superbike true to its tradition as a class, which was in the process of
> establishing itself as the premier roadracing class from both a fan and
> manufacturer's perspective.
>
> "The concern is the performance of the new 1000cc four cylinder machines,
> and the Suzuki win at Brands today points out the dominance that machine
has
> shown this year, its first in Superbike. That win was the fourth for a
four
> cylinder machine in BSB in the last year and a half, a startling level of
> domination. Ducati, who has supported Superbike everywhere since the
> beginning, has won only 55 of the last 60 races in BSB over the last three
> years. That could be excused because of the lack of participation of the
> other twin manufacturers in that series, but that glosses over deeper
> issues. In the AMA, where a twin has won only once this year and where
> Ducati has been banned from the series in the last week [ed. - denied by
the
> AMA] , it is clear what can happen when the rules become terribly out of
> balance.
>
> "In World Superbike this year the situation has slipped tenuously close to
> falling into the same trap, with the new Suzuki actually leading races on
> occasion and finishing on the podium. One could hide one's head in the
sand
> and state that Ducati has won every race this year, that twins have won
over
> 50 races in a row and every race but one over the last two and a half
years,
> but that would be denying the very real issues that lie just under the
> surface. It was expected that the experiment with restrictors this year
> would show that a competitive balance could be maintained in this manner,
> but now we have serious doubts about that.
>
> "It is our intent to revise the rules that will govern World Superbike
next
> year and beyond. There have been many ideas proposed, and none have been
> finalized to this point. Among those that have merit in my eyes are the
> proposition that all modifications to all engine configurations are to be
> allowed equally, but that all engines will be allowed to use only two
spark
> plugs in total. Another idea is to restrict tire usage, allowing four
> cylinder machines to run only narrower tires, perhaps no more than 120mm
in
> width on the rear. It has also been suggested that fours should run rain
> tires in dry conditions and slicks when it's wet, and that idea has merit
> but presents certain safety issues. We are considering allowing them to
run
> only 85 octane pump gas, and only two gallons of it per race. There has
been
> discussion of requiring one rider per two cylinders on each machine,
making
> it a requirement for the fours to carry a passenger. But this has created
> issues for the Foggy Petronas team. The proposed rules would allow three
> cylinder machines to carry a dwarf, but Fogarty has claimed cultural
issues
> with this solution in his native Britain, something that would surface
with
> predictably negative results after the first highside.
>
> "WSB will finalize its decision on proposed rules shortly, and then they
> will be reviewed and voted on by the teams shortly after. To maintain
> viability of the process, each manufacturer currently involved on the
series
> will get one vote per rider currently entered in the entire series. That
> will allow two votes for Suzuki, two for Foggy Petronas, one for Yamaha,
two
> for Kawasaki, and twenty three for Ducati. We promise to fix Superbike, at
> the world championship level and below. That is our mission."
>
> Unbelievable, crazy stuff...
>
>
>
>
> >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Sep 26, 2003 Posts: 66
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:34 pm
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"Davide Tosi" wrote in message
> Fours in fact mean japanese bikes. And who does really want a japanese
> bike? They are like whores, men go with them just because they are cheap.
> But everyone who has the money preferes a Euro bike.
Except for those with money that prefer the Japanese bikes. Those is search
of something more elusive in terms of style, status, or percieved prestige
may look to Europe, but machines like the GSXR are popular because they
perform, because they're bullet proof, and have been race tested. They're
cheaper for the consumer both in the showroom floor and in the general
market because of their vast popularity. Folks ride them stock or tear them
down to their component bits and put more effort into customizing them than
many "custom" Harleys.
> The future of WSB (and other national SB championhip) should be trying to
> rebuild the great situation that was in the golden age of motorbiking: the
> early '50s.
The motorcycles of the early 50's have changed pretty dramatically from the
motorcycles of the 21st century. It takes FAR more to build a competetive
machine today than it did then.
> However, there are other top bike manufacturers that have twin or cube
> bikes that could enter the SB championships. I think of Triumph, BMW and a
> lot of other italian manufacturers (first of all Aprilia should come back)
Triumph, BMW, Aprilla, etc CHOOSE to not participate in WSB. They can all
build a machine that qualifys under the WSB rules, but choose not to.
Triumph is just dipping its toes into the water with its 600 last year and
this year in Britain, where it directly helps their marketing efforts.
Aprilia decided they'd rather focus on Moto GP. BMW is spending VAST amounts
of money playing in their own "Boxer Cup" (where the BMWs do very well --
they've won more races than Ducati in WSB!). If nothing else, BMW has taken
the "racing as marketing" philosophy to its penulitmate end. And make no
mistake, that's what racing at the top level is. It's a marketing medium for
the manufacturers and the sponsors.
Diversity can help bring in the fan base, but to me the problem with WSB
today isn't Ducati, it's simply the combination of Hodgson and Ducati that
is dominating the series. Xaus did very well last weekend, and it was
exciting to watch. Note that: XAUS was exciting to watch, not the Ducati.
Xaus makes the Ducati interesting. In the US, the Ducati makes Gobert
interesting if for no other reason that it keeps breaking, which is a shame.
Another case of a rider whose machine gives him a disservice.
In the AMA the Suzukis appear to dominate but the challenges of racing and
campaigning and weather (particularly this year) are certainly leveling the
playing field. Of course, this is a transitory year this year, and will take
a couple more for the manufacturers to adapt to the new playing field.
But if you look at Harley Davidson in AMA SB, they were using it almost
solely as a development series, and (barely) a marketing series. The result
is their VROD motorcycle which has nothing to do with the style or role of a
modern sport bike. So much for a "production" series.
In WSB we have the Petronas(sp?) bikes slowly developing. A manufacturer
focused on racing. I think that in this case it's simply a rich mans hobby
at this level, I don't know what the future plans are of these people as far
as being a motorcycle company.
Manufactuers will only play if they see a direct result in the market place,
if their efforts will advance the product line and net them sales in the
field. Otherwise it's a purely privateer effort.
Regards,
Will Hartung
(willh@msoft.com) >> Stay informed about: WSB to change rules! |
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Since: Jun 20, 2003 Posts: 702
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:41 pm
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New rules in MotoGP - http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=6&nid=99328 New rules for yellow flag pasing effective imediatly _and_ no race stop when rain starts, effective from 2005. I can't say I like the latter. Racing on slics the last couple of laps as the ...
AMA superbike rules - Stolen from the ama: >For timed qualifying events in Superbike, a rider's best lap >time must be within 108% of the fastest qualifying rider's >best lap time in order to pre-qualify for one of the available >grid positions in the final. In t...
New WSB rules announced today - Nothing official yet, but it looks like next year's WSB rules will be very similar to this year's AMA. 1000-2 unchanged 900-3 unchanged 750-4 unchanged (as if anyone cares) 1000-4 - No restrictors - SBK chassis - Stock crank, polished, balanced and..
where can I find the official motoGP rules? - tia -- \\Mike ---------------- |
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