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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 453



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:20 am
Post subject: Testing, and more testing...
Archived from groups: rec>motorcycles>racing (more info?)

The 2004 season has officially begun, now that the Daytona tire
tests are run and the first official IRTA test has begun. Some overanalysis:

End of an era: Honda takes to the track with an inline-four superbike for
the first time in more than 20 years, since the CB750/900F in 1982. After 8
AMA SB championships and 5 WSB championships, the V-engine experiment is
over. And that CBR looks pretty damned good, ripping off a 47.65 under B-Boz
and a 192mph trap speed. Smokin'.

The other new 1000s: The SS machines were amazingly fast as well, with both
Hacking and DiSalvo posting 49.5s on the R1 and Tom Hayden a 50.6 on the
Kawi. Looks like Yamaha could break into the top 10 in SB with their SS
machine. If the tires don't explode first...

And about those tires: Unfortunately that's the story of the test. The
situation has reached a critical point, and I don't know what they can do
before March. Mladin says he won't ride, which may be out of the heat of the
moment and for effect (he would probably benefit by a Daytona cancellation,
championship-wise), but what if he's serious? What if no one rides? This
isn't Sears Point or Loudon, it's the opener and the biggest race of the
year, dictated as such by tradition. And there's no obvious short-term
solution, although in the longer run the answer is changing the course.
Although the track seems to think they aren't the problem. Could it be that
it's just Dunlop? Or is this just the straw that broke the camel's back for
the riders regarding racing at the speedway? Will Daytona end up as the
first fatality of the literbike era in racing? Assuming one doesn't consider
that to be Kato. Or WSB.

About the race: If they race on, what kind of race is Daytona? Under the new
rules the Suzukis may not be competitive here, just as they weren't this
year. So do they just ride around and gather the points they can, as
E-Boz/Ducati/Michelin may do, mindful of the Daytona Ducati jinx, and then
move on to the real racing? The tires may be so hard that there isn't any
real racing, just a survival test. The next round at Fontana offers twice
the points and only 2/3rds the distance, and the playing field will be very
different. Is Daytona mostly irrelevant now, just a rather bizarre and
dangerous display?

About the 600s: The Kawis were fast, and the R6s were faster. Yates
certainly couldn't get the new Suzuki SS to that pace, something like 3
seconds slower than Hacking, down on power. I know it's a brand new bike,
but a sign of problems? If so, any chance they'll bail for FX? Seems like it
would make sense, with Spies owning the FX number one plate and Yates
probably preferring a miniSB to a SS machine. And Honda doesn't look
unbeatable there, as the best time I saw posted was Duhamel's 53.5, over a
second off Hacking. Why chase Yamaha if they're that good? If Suzuki and
Kawasaki move to FX, doesn't that become the class that matters? Or are they
afraid of Honda more than Yamaha? Earlier this year after the class changes
were announced Jefferson Burkes, Hacking's chief mechanic, told me he
thought it would be tough to make 600s faster than current SS machines, they
were that good, and from what I can see of Honda's FX machine so far, he
looks to be right. The FX machines will get there, but where will that be? I
assume a Daytona pole time in 600SS will be 1:52, in 1000SS 1:49, in SB
(assuming no Qs) 1:47, maybe into the 46s. Can an FX Honda go below 1:51?
1:50?? Their new SS machine was on pole this year with Miguel's 52.8, and
they ought to be able to take at least a second and a half off that.

Meanwhile at Valencia: Not too much coming out of the first joint test so
far, but there were a few things: Biaggi taking over at the front with Rossi
gone, which is not a surprise; Tamada putting up some very good times on the
Bridgestones, which might bode well for Kawasaki and Suzuki as well; a first
look at Shakey, Kurtis, Neil, Ruben, and also Colin on the Honda. The pace
still seems to be the Hondas and the Marlboro Ducatis, with a 1.5 second gap
between Edwards and Xaus on Thursday, also not a surprise. We'll have to
wait until next year to get a read on the Yamahas, though. Speaking of them,
did you see the official provisional MGP entry list? It showed Rossi and
Checa on the Gauloises bikes and Barros and Melandri in Fortuna colors. Does
that make sense, Checa not with Fortuna? It also lists Roberts with Proton,
but today there was an article on the website that says he hasn't signed
yet. And still nothing yet on that 2nd Repsol spot...

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Will Hartung

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Since: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 66



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Testing, and more testing... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Mark N" wrote in message


 > And about those tires: Unfortunately that's the story of the test. The
 > situation has reached a critical point, and I don't know what they can do
 > before March. Mladin says he won't ride, which may be out of the heat of
the
 > moment and for effect (he would probably benefit by a Daytona
cancellation,
 > championship-wise), but what if he's serious? What if no one rides? This
 > isn't Sears Point or Loudon, it's the opener and the biggest race of the
 > year, dictated as such by tradition. And there's no obvious short-term
 > solution, although in the longer run the answer is changing the course.
 > Although the track seems to think they aren't the problem. Could it be
that
 > it's just Dunlop? Or is this just the straw that broke the camel's back
for
 > the riders regarding racing at the speedway? Will Daytona end up as the
 > first fatality of the literbike era in racing? Assuming one doesn't
consider
 > that to be Kato. Or WSB.

I understand the focus of Daytona, but this was the fourth tire failure this
year. Another one earlier at Daytona, and then much earlier we had two at
the same track (I forget which -- Mladin and Deatherage? I think?) Mladin
survived uninjured.

And Mladin had tire issues all year long last year, so while the Daytona
track is an easy target, it's not the only responsible party, IMHO.

Regards,

Will Hartung
(willh@msoft.com)

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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 453



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:28 am
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"Will Hartung" wrote in message

 > I understand the focus of Daytona, but this was the fourth tire failure
this
 > year. Another one earlier at Daytona, and then much earlier we had two at
 > the same track (I forget which -- Mladin and Deatherage? I think?) Mladin
 > survived uninjured.
 >
 > And Mladin had tire issues all year long last year, so while the Daytona
 > track is an easy target, it's not the only responsible party, IMHO.

Well, that's the thing, what's going on here? Dunlop's blown two tires since
the end of the season, and everyone's up in arms. So is it the track, the
tires, or a little of both? Is it a Dunlop problem, or is it that because
they're on almost every bike out there? Are they trying to give the riders a
little stick in the infield and trading in reliability on the banking? Or is
it just the 370lb 1000s? Why was Mladin blowing them up every other race
this year and Yates, who could melt down a steel tire, wasn't having those
problems?

And regarding Mladin, does he just hate Daytona? I mean, they pretty much
all hate Daytona and you can't argue that it's not dangerous, but beyond
that it was the only place he was off the pace this year, and his horrible
'02 began with his elbow injury and DNS at Daytona. So is it any excuse to
avoid racing there? Or is he trying to start a boycott, doesn't have to race
there, and saves points in the championship? Or is he trying to inspire
Dunlop to fix their tires, and maybe Daytona to fix their track? Or was it
entirely emotional, was he just concerned about the unnecessary danger at
that moment, to himself and everyone else?

As the champion, he does have a responsibility to take leadership on things
like this. As we've seen in the past, that sort of leadership has its
strongest impact when there is no question of it being compromised by
personal benefit. We've also seen that these sorts of things tend to be the
result of a buildup of unhappiness or frustration, not necessarily derived
from the same cause. In this case it seems likely to be only Daytona/Dunlop,
because even Mladin would have to say the series in general has improved
significantly over the last several years in the area of safety - the end of
racing at places like Phoenix and Loudon purely because of safety concerns,
improvements at a number of other tracks, the new tracks added almost all
relatively safe. What's not clear to me is how much of this is a signal to
Dunlop to get their shit together, a signal to Daytona to do something about
the layout, or a signal to the AMA that it's time to just dump this place.
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Will Hartung

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Since: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 66



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:20 am
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"Mark N" wrote in message

 > Well, that's the thing, what's going on here? Dunlop's blown two tires
since
 > the end of the season, and everyone's up in arms. So is it the track, the
 > tires, or a little of both? Is it a Dunlop problem, or is it that because
 > they're on almost every bike out there? Are they trying to give the riders
a
 > little stick in the infield and trading in reliability on the banking? Or
is
 > it just the 370lb 1000s? Why was Mladin blowing them up every other race
 > this year and Yates, who could melt down a steel tire, wasn't having those
 > problems?

It the bitter consequences of track, tire, volume, and testing I think. As
you mentioned in the other thread, Mladins blowout in Atlanta was at a fast
part of the course. There are also a lot of Dunlops out there, so the sample
size is very large compared to other manufacturers. Finally, the
circumstances under which it seem to be happening may only exist at a select
few tracks.

But I have to wonder, because I haven't heard any anecdotes about failures
at, say, Willow Springs with the clubs. That is a VERY fast and very hot
track, and no doubt there are folks running their bikes as hard out there,
with as much power as the super bikes, but we don't seem to hear about any
catastrophic issues happening there.

Then, there's the MotoGP anecdote. I don't know if Dunlop is popular there,
or if the tracks simply don't promote the failures, or what.

Finally, what about Isle of Mann. I get the impression that it has some of
the longest sections of balls out WFO power of any track around. Do Dunlops
run there?

I've heard a couple of places that spinning and sliding the tire does less
structural damage to a tire than one might think, as it limits the heat to
the out side of the tire and not the core where "real" damage happens. Dunno
how this affects the actual capabilities of a tire during the race, but it's
supposedly not as destructive as it looks.

 > And regarding Mladin, does he just hate Daytona? I mean, they pretty much
 > all hate Daytona and you can't argue that it's not dangerous, but beyond
 > that it was the only place he was off the pace this year, and his horrible
 > '02 began with his elbow injury and DNS at Daytona. So is it any excuse to
 > avoid racing there? Or is he trying to start a boycott, doesn't have to
race
 > there, and saves points in the championship? Or is he trying to inspire
 > Dunlop to fix their tires, and maybe Daytona to fix their track? Or was it
 > entirely emotional, was he just concerned about the unnecessary danger at
 > that moment, to himself and everyone else?
 >
 > As the champion, he does have a responsibility to take leadership on
things
 > like this. As we've seen in the past, that sort of leadership has its
 > strongest impact when there is no question of it being compromised by
 > personal benefit. We've also seen that these sorts of things tend to be
the
 > result of a buildup of unhappiness or frustration, not necessarily derived
 > from the same cause. In this case it seems likely to be only
Daytona/Dunlop,
 > because even Mladin would have to say the series in general has improved
 > significantly over the last several years in the area of safety - the end
of
 > racing at places like Phoenix and Loudon purely because of safety
concerns,
 > improvements at a number of other tracks, the new tracks added almost all
 > relatively safe. What's not clear to me is how much of this is a signal to
 > Dunlop to get their shit together, a signal to Daytona to do something
about
 > the layout, or a signal to the AMA that it's time to just dump this place.

The tire issue could simply be the arguing point to latch on to that can
promote change at Daytona. It could easily be that there isn't one
overwhelming compelling issue that makes Daytona bad, but this last issue of
tires "breaks the camels back" that might get the AMA and the track to
perhaps takes all of the concerns more seriously.

If anything, it might push Dunlop to treat the failures as more than an
anomaly. I just don't know if they can actually do anything by the January
test. And that's the real key. If Mladin is serious about his concerns, he
will have to put his money up and not race (and hopefully get others to not
race), because 3 months isn't enough time I think to make any real changes
to the track or bike or the tires, IMHO. But we'll see.

Unless AMA cancels it, though, I can guarantee Eric B. will race. I have no
doubt that he wants any edge he can get this year (including racing when
Mladin doesn't) both to put the Ducati on top at Daytona, and to get the
championship this year.

Regards,

Will Hartung
(willh@msoft.com)
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Mark N

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Since: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 453



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:26 pm
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"Will Hartung" wrote in message

 > But I have to wonder, because I haven't heard any anecdotes about failures
 > at, say, Willow Springs with the clubs. That is a VERY fast and very hot
 > track, and no doubt there are folks running their bikes as hard out there,
 > with as much power as the super bikes, but we don't seem to hear about any
 > catastrophic issues happening there.

I think part of the issue is how hard the guys push the tires, and the
factory push them farther than just about anyone in the clubs. It may also
be that the club guys are given tried-and-true tires that are solid but not
necessarily that sticky. The factory guys are given things that are more
marginal, on the edge, and not proven. Remember that the DiSalvo problem
occurred at a TIRE TEST.

 > Then, there's the MotoGP anecdote. I don't know if Dunlop is popular
there,
 > or if the tracks simply don't promote the failures, or what.

GP bikes are lighter than SB/SS machines, which may be an important
difference. GP mostly runs on F1-type tracks these days, which are mostly
2nd and 3rd-gear corners strung together with shortish straights. If GP was
still running at Hockenheim, Salzburgring, Spa, Paul Ricard, etc. things
might be different. Remember that the AMA mostly runs at tracks they also
used 15-20 years ago.

 > Finally, what about Isle of Mann. I get the impression that it has some of
 > the longest sections of balls out WFO power of any track around. Do
Dunlops
 > run there?
 > I've heard a couple of places that spinning and sliding the tire does less
 > structural damage to a tire than one might think, as it limits the heat to
 > the out side of the tire and not the core where "real" damage happens.
Dunno
 > how this affects the actual capabilities of a tire during the race, but
it's
 > supposedly not as destructive as it looks.

I think a big part of the Daytona issue is the banking, which isn't the same
as running flat out on a straight. My understanding is that the tires take a
real pounding on the banking.

 > If anything, it might push Dunlop to treat the failures as more than an
 > anomaly. I just don't know if they can actually do anything by the January
 > test. And that's the real key. If Mladin is serious about his concerns, he
 > will have to put his money up and not race (and hopefully get others to
not
 > race), because 3 months isn't enough time I think to make any real changes
 > to the track or bike or the tires, IMHO. But we'll see.

I don't know about that. The bikes won't be changed, and it's unlikely that
the track will do anything (although they certainly could add another
chicane or two). But the tires could change. I remember in 500 in '91, when
Michelin had pulled back their support and Roberts Yamaha and Suzuki had
changed to Dunlop. Rainey had some tire problems early in the year, the most
pronounced in Italy (Misano?), where he had to come in for a change.
Hockenheim was the next round, and Wayne was making a lot of noise and
everyone in the Dunlop camp was worried. So they worked around the clock,
their tires worked flawlessly in the race, where Rainey and Schwantz went
down to the end in a classic battle, and it was Doohan's Michelin that
chunked. They can do things in a short period of time, and remember that
this is probably a big issue for Dunlop, given the current publicity, the
WSB situation and the arrival of Michelin in force in the AMA, and that
Dunlop has been relegated to Aprilia and Proton in MotoGP. I think they have
incentive, although the January test might well be psychological as much as
anything, rebuilding the confidence.

 > Unless AMA cancels it, though, I can guarantee Eric B. will race. I have
no
 > doubt that he wants any edge he can get this year (including racing when
 > Mladin doesn't) both to put the Ducati on top at Daytona, and to get the
 > championship this year.

I'm not sure I'd agree. Eric dislikes Daytona as much as anyone else, and if
there was a general boycott I can't quite see him scabbing. Of course, if
it's a Dunlop issue, then there would be terrific pressure from Michelin to
ride. My guess is that everyone will race, but there will begin to be real
pressure to do something about the place. Particularly if someone blows up
in the races, which would be a nightmare for Dunlop.
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