Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems.

> 1. Battery is sulfated and on its last legs. It reads 12.5 volts or more, and
> the specific gravity of the electrolyte is correct, but the plates are
> sulfated and you only get a surface charge. It the head light works for half
> an hour or 45 minutes, the battery is strong enough.
>

Tried jumping off of my car battery -- no dice.

> 2. Bad contacts inside starter solenoid. Jumper across the terminals with an
> old screwdriver. If the starter cranks the engine, it's the contacts.
>

Starter does not crank, but spins a bit -- ONLY when contact is
broken. This strikes me as wierd -- why would the starter try to turn
when the current is ending?


> 3. Worn out brushes and dirty commutator. Pull the starter out and open it up.
> Look up the minimum length of the brushes and measure them. Replace them if
> they are too short. Be sure the brushes move freely in the brush holder.
> Check the brush springs to see if they are still strong enough to push the
> brushes against the commutator. Use some fine grit emery paper to clean the
> brown film off the commutator.

Brushes are in good contact with the commutator -- commutator is
clean. Starter cranks when I use my car battery.



> 4. Check the crankcase where the starter bolts to it. Excess oxidization of
> the aluminum prevents the starter from getting a good ground. Use fine
> sandpaper to clean up an oxidization.

Wiped it out, but there was no noticeable corrosion.
>
> 5. Check the ground strap to goes from the engine to the frame.Make sure it's
> clean at both ends.
>

Looks clean.


> 6. Make sure the battery ground cable is clean at both ends.

Yes.

Any more ideas?

Thanks for your help-- this is my first bike. Maybe I should have
gotten one with fewer problems!
 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

"Tomsey" <tomsey.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote

> Tried jumping off of my car battery -- no dice.
>
> Starter cranks when I use my car battery.
>

Yep, I've got a suggestion: How about being consistent with your story?
Well, not consistent maybe, but there is a tiny bit of information missing
somewhere.

We are within a RCH of identifying the problem.
Be a little more specific (and careful) with your next reply and you will
get the right answer.
 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

On Jul 13, 7:41 pm, "Ken Abrams" <harvest_t....TakeThisOut@scum.suckers> wrote:
> "Tomsey" <tom....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > Tried jumping off of my car battery -- no dice.
>
> > Starter cranks when I use my car battery.
>
> Yep, I've got a suggestion: How about being consistent with your story?
> Well, not consistent maybe, but there is a tiny bit of information missing
> somewhere.
>
> We are within a RCH of identifying the problem.
> Be a little more specific (and careful) with your next reply and you will
> get the right answer.

OK. I can see where that was vague:

When I try to jump the entire motorcycle off of the car battery, it
doesn't start the motorcycle.

When I take the starter out of the motorcycle, and connect the battery
from the car directly to it, it cranks the starter.

I tried roll starting the bike (again, my first bike, I'm just
learning about all of this), and it locked up the back wheel. I think
the engine is frozen up? My next step is to take out the spark plugs
and see what's going on in there... I'm guessing I might see corrosion
or something... I have the sinking feeling that this bike was stored
with the carbs off, and enough moisture crept in there to cause
problems.

I guess I might be taking apart the engine... I guess I needed a
project.

I appreciate everyone's patience. I'm new to the stuff.

Does it sound like the engine is frozen up?

Thanks again for the patience.
 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

Tomsey wrote:

>Tried jumping off of my car battery -- no dice.

Using a car battery to jump start a motorcycle is not the best idea in the
world.
If the motorcycle battery is dead and the car battery is weak, the motorcycle
alternator has to charge both batteries when the engine starts and this may
blow out a diode in the rectifier regulator.

>Starter does not crank, but spins a bit -- ONLY when contact is
>broken. This strikes me as wierd -- why would the starter try to turn
>when the current is ending?

That strikes me as weird too. The starter would NOT try to turn when you
removed the source of electrical power.

When I use the term "crank", I mean that the starter turns the engine over
and you hear the "ying-ying-ying-ying" sound. If the starter is installed,
and it is spinning but not cranking the engine because of a starter clutch
problem it will go "wheeeeeee".

Do you get a continuous "wheeeee" sound when you hold the starter button down?
Blame the starter clutch or the alternator rotor.

This is how the starter cranks the engine.

http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic.asp?dept_id=992441

When the starter spins, it turns gear #1. Gear #1 just sits there on the #2
shaft until the starter turns it.

Gear #1 turns the larger gear, which is sitting on a needle bearing
on the end of the crankshaft. When the engine is running, the larger gear can
be motionless. The engine can be turning 10,000 RPM and the big gear isn't
doing anything.

The only time that the larger gear is supposed to turn is when you push the
starter button.

That's when the three cylindrical rollers (#4) push against the cylindrical-
looking stub sticking out of the big gear.

Since that gizmo that looks like it has three slots cut out of it is bolted
to the back of the alternator rotor by three high strength allen bolts the
engine has to crank. It has to go "ying-ying-ying-ying".

The GS-series Suzukis had a lot of starter clutch problems and alternator
problems.

The alternator rotor is bolted to the tapered end of the crankshaft by one
big nut.

The nut can loosen up, or the alternator rotor's inertia can cause it to
"walk around" on the tapered end of the crankshaft.

When the rotor has walked around enough, the rotor's internal taper wears out
and the rotor will always be loose on the crankshaft and the starter will go
"wheeeee" instead of "ying-ying-ying-ying."

The special high strength allen bolts holding the starter clutch can break
and jam everything up. In the worst case, this stops the rear wheel from
turning while you are riding.

When that happened to me, I was in first gear going about 10mph. I heard a
big
"crunch!", the rear wheel skidded, then the bolt went through a hole in the
big gear and unlocked the wheel.

The cylindrical rollers can jam up and cause the same problem.

Or the little spring loaded pushers that force the rollers against the end of
the big gear can stick, and the starter will only go "wheeeee" as the roller
skid.

One time, the needle bearing in the middle of the big gear wore out and the
gear was able to tilt a little. It locked up the starter clutch and tore a
big chunk out of the cylindrical part of the gear.

That was on the freeway at midnight. I was going 70 mph when the gear jammed.
Then i was suddenly going 40 and the gear unjammed.

The engine tried to turn the starter about 40,000 RPM. That tore a big chunk
out of the commutator.

Fortunately, some friends and I were working on converting another GS into a
roadracer, and I got replacement parts from that bike for free.

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

Tomsey <tomsey.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

> I tried roll starting the bike (again, my first bike, I'm just
> learning about all of this), and it locked up the back wheel. I think
> the engine is frozen up?

What gear did you try and bump-start it in? If first, I'm not surprised
the back wheel locked. Try second, or even third.

> My next step is to take out the spark plugs
> and see what's going on in there... I'm guessing I might see corrosion
> or something... I have the sinking feeling that this bike was stored
> with the carbs off, and enough moisture crept in there to cause
> problems.

How do you know? Were the carbs off when you bought it?
>
> I guess I might be taking apart the engine... I guess I needed a
> project.

I really, really doubt the engine needs rebuilding, unless it has been,.
as you say, stored for a long time with carbs off and also the plugs
out.


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 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

"Tomsey" <tomsey.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote

> OK. I can see where that was vague:
>
> When I try to jump the entire motorcycle off of the car battery, it
> doesn't start the motorcycle.
>
OK, you get a some slack for not being a mechanic, but this is getting a
little old.

EXACTLY how doesn't it start? Doesn't turn over at all? Turns over but
doesn't fire?
Turns a bit and then stops?
The DETAILS are important !!!!!

> When I take the starter out of the motorcycle, and connect the battery
> from the car directly to it, it cranks the starter.
>

OK, so the starter is probably good.

> I tried roll starting the bike (again, my first bike, I'm just
> learning about all of this), and it locked up the back wheel. I think
> the engine is frozen up?

Maybe. That would match some of the other clues.
Might not be as bad a problem as you think though.
Could be that fuel has leaked into a cylinder and you have hydraulic lock.

Remove the plugs and then try to turn it over (stand clear of the plug holes
as fuel or oil might come flying out.......or pieces of a valve). Try
this first with the kill switch OFF; that's the safest way to go but on some
models the kill switch kills the starter too. If no-go, try pushing again
in 3rd. gear with plugs out.

Once again, the DETAILS of what happens when you do this are
important.......especially any weird noises!

If your theory is right, help from here is pretty much done.

Although one poster would happily compose a 50 page message trying to tell
you how to rebuild the engine, explaining not only how but WHY each step is
done the way it is...........and some of it would even be right!
 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

> Frozen pistons explain why you might hear the starter make a "grrrrr" noise
> as it tries to turn the crankshaft. When you let go of the starter button,
> the starter would make a little "wheeee" sound as the wound up gears release.
>

I really appreciate all the help I'm getting from everyone here.

This is exactly what seems to be happening. When I try to start the
motorcycle, there's a click from the solenoid, the starter makes
negligible noise, and when I release the starter button, the starrer
"whirs". After opening the engine on the clutch side, I can see that
the starter gear tries to turn the engine over, fails, and then
releases, spinning in the opposite direction -- there's that noise
you're talking about.


> Only you know what your time and effort is worth and whether you can afford
> to fix this machine or not. If they tell you that you're a dummy and can't
> learn to fix a motorcycle, don't pay them any mind, just go ahead and try the
> simple things
> like pulling the spark plugs out and trying to push the motorcycle with the
> transmission in 5th gear.

Hah! Yes. Tis my "keep busy" project. My sanity is worth burying
myself in something I've never understood. At the end of it, maybe
I'll be handing out advice on Usenet groups! I'm going to work on
this bike until I establish that it simply won't run -- and I think it
will run.

> If the motorcycle cannot be pushed in gear with the spark plugs out, the
> pistons may be seized or frozen to the cylinder walls or worse, a rod bearing
> may have rotated around the rod pin. The crankshaft cannot turn if the rod
> bearing has "spun" around to the other side.
>
> Try squirting some penetrating oil into the cylinders if the engine won't
> turn over.
>
> Let the penetrating oil sit in there overnight, and spray some more in there
> the next morning and let it sit some more.

OK. I'm going to try this series first. When you say "some"
penetrating oil, what sort of quantity is appropriate? Should I see
oil sitting in there, or do I mist it?

> Then you can once again try to make the crankshaft turn with the transmission
> in 5th gear. You can put the bike on the centerstand and work the rear wheel
> back and forth to break the pistons loose,

OK -- that makes sense. As long as the bike is in 5th gear, turning
the wheel will move the pistons?

> If you can get the pistons loose and get the engine to run, you will need to
> change the oil and filter at least twice to get all the accumulated rust out
> of the engine.

Check.

> If the piston make a slapping noise when the engine runs, the piston skirts
> have collapsed and you will need new pistons, probably oversize, and new
> rings and gaskets, etc.

Thanks again.
 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

Tomsey wrote:

>After opening the engine on the clutch side, I can see that
>the starter gear tries to turn the engine over, fails, and then
>releases, spinning in the opposite direction -- there's that noise
>you're talking about.

Are you looking at the starter clutch and the alternator rotor on the left
hand side of the motorcycle? In that case, my scenario of a frozen piston
makes sense.

If you're looking at the power clutch on the right hand side of the engine
and you see that the starter is causing the crankshaft to wind up the primary
gears, then the problem is stacked gears in the transmission, unless you're
sure the transmission is out of gear.

Stacked gears is when the transmission gets stuck in two gears at once.

But you can easily disprove that scenario if you can put the transmission
into neutral and spin the rear wheel.

What else could stop the clutch from turning? A seized up oil pump. The
clutch drives the oil pump gears.

http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic.asp?dept_id=705475

What else could stop the crankshaft from turning, besides frozen pistons or a
spun bearing? The counterbalancer is gear driven off the crankshaft and has a
little shock absorbing gizmo driving the balancer shaft. It's not
inconceivable that something might go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong...

http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/showschematic.asp?dept_id=706129

>OK. I'm going to try this series first. When you say "some"
>penetrating oil, what sort of quantity is appropriate?

You could put 4 or 5 ounces of penetrating oil into each cylinder and let it
sit.
But be sure that it has penetrated down past the piston rings or blow it out
the spark plug holes by cranking the engine with the starter when the pistons
free up.

You can conceivably bend a connecting rod by hydraulically locking the piston
if there is still a lot of oil in the cylinder when you try to start the
engine.

> Should I see oil sitting in there, or do I mist it?

I would use a liquid penetrating oil. Since the engine has a 180 degree
crankshaft, one piston may be at top dead center and you could see oil on the
cylinder while the other piston my be way down at the bottom of its stroke
and you can't see the oil you poured down the spark plug hole.

OTOH, both pistons may be halfway down the bores, no way to tell without
looking down the spark plug hole or sticking a long rod down there.

>OK -- that makes sense. As long as the bike is in 5th gear, turning
>the wheel will move the pistons?

Yes. Using the rear wheel to turn the engine over is one way, you can also
put a wrench on the nut that holds the alternator rotor on or put a wrench on
the bolt that holds the signal generator rotor on.

Problem with putting a wrench on the alternator rotor nut is that you have to
turn it in the direction that loosens the nut. If you put about 80 foot
pounds of torque on that nut trying to turn the engine over, the nut may
loosen up and you have to re-torque the nut.

If you try to use the bolt holding the signal generator rotor onto a seized
engine, you may break the bolt.

So it's just safer to try to rock the crankshaft back and forth by turning
the rear wheel a little bit. It works kind of like an impact hammer.

Even that idea will offend some of the yuppies who read this NG. They will
wring their hands and type, "B-b-b-but you never want to turn the engine over
*backwards*, you will b-b-b-break the cam chain!"

Hey, it's your engine, and you are trying to learn motorcycle mechanics and
you don't have a shop and the $tealer$hips won't touch a bike that old and
the independant mechanics may just keep the bike in their storage yard for
six months waiting to "get around to it".

Instead of all that, you can do the work yourself and take the risk that
you're going to break something.

You *will* break things while you're learning to wrench on motorcycles, it's
just part of the process of becoming a mechanic.

Good luck with your sanity saving project.

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 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems. 

"Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe> wrote:

> What else could stop the crankshaft from turning, besides frozen pistons or a
> spun bearing? The counterbalancer is gear driven off the crankshaft and has a
> little shock absorbing gizmo driving the balancer shaft. It's not
> inconceivable that something might go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong...

They don't. Suzuki gear-driven balancer shafts just don't go wrong.


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 >> Stay informed about: Suzuki GS450L, Starting problems.