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Since: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 58
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>rec>motorcycles (more info?)
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"simonk" <me7.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote in message news:0001HW.BDC2E003000C2548F02845B0@news.individual.net...
> Catman wrote
> > simonk wrote:
> >
> >> Worth spending money on, or what?
> >
> > Only if *you* can hear it.
>
> Well there's the rub - I won't know I can hear it until I try it; but if I
> try it, will I simply convince myself it was worth it?
Basically cables can be "dry", top/mid/bass heavy, "lush", "musical".
(and of course "shit", "crap", "messy", etc)
I suggest doing some research on various not to expensive cables, choosing
one that matches the type of sound you like and getting some and trying it.
If the sound isn't to taste then you can "tune" the sound, find out another
brand of cable thats more biassed to the type of sound you like and get and
try some of that.
I.E do the (educated) trial and error on cheap cable first to find out what
type of cable you like.
Once you've found the type of sound (cable) you like using the cheap(ish)
stuff you can find a shop that'll let you try some of the expensive stuff, that
is known for the same characteristics of the cheap cable you preferred.
There are a few factors all speaker cables must get right to be any good;
timing : high and low frequencies must take exactly the same time to get
from one end to the other. If they don't you get phase errors and loose
a lot of the spatial awareness of the sound (i.e. the ability of the system
to place instruments in the 3D soundstage between the speakers)
frequency response : the attenuation of the signal must be equal from low
to high frequencies. If its not the cable introduces horrible colourations,
like the wife playing with your 32 band equaliser so the layout of the
knobs "looks pretty"...
Get those two right (and its bloody difficult to do so cheaply) and
the manufacturer can then tweek the cable *very slightly* to
introduce very slight colouration (to make it slightly bright, or bass
heavy, etc) or add very slight tweeks to the low/high timing (so a
particular cable will match better with a specific speaker)
Also since all amps are built to have their own "characteristic"
company sound, and ditto with speakers, you use speaker cables to
slightly tweek the overall sound to what you like.
This all applies to equipment interconnects as well.
frag<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 58
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"gomez" <adams_gomez.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:nigqp01cjg634v597cehiu82tb02h4d2nt@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:35:22 +0000, simonk <me7.DeleteThis@privacy.net> dropped
> the following oil-slick:
>
> >Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full of reviews
> >about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in the back of my
> >mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete bobbins, and that
> >13amp mains flex would do fine.
> >
> It tosh. Hi Fi Answers were the main culprits for this bullshit in
> the 1970/80's. They blew their cover when one reviewer claimed that
> having a separate power supply for his system, isolated from the rest
> of the house, made a difference. To his credit, I don't think he
> claimed it was connected to a different National Grid.
So why then is there an expanding industry of people putting designs
on the Net for screened mains leads. Free designs. From which they
make no profit.
And of course a seperate mains feed means that interference introduced
onto the normal ring circuit from your fridge/freezer/dishwasher/immersion
heater/central heating/hoover/kettle/toaster/microwave/computer/laptop/
dildo/hedge trimmer won't actually *get* to your nice HiFi cause the
seperate feed has a filter fitted at the fuze box where its taken off from.
This is one thing that whoever brought it to light years ago actually
knew what they were talking about, its the rest of you pikey plebs
who don't want to admit it, cause if you did you'd have to spend some
dosh, which would cause you to commit suicide/explode/spontaneously
combust.
I'll admit that it *sounds* like tosh at first, but learn the science and
do the research and it actually make sense.
Of course there are some people out there making things up and
selling them for loads of money that are ripping people off, always
happens when something like this is discovered and starts to become
popular with a fledgling public who doesn't know much, but that
doesn't mean the genuine stuff isn't genuine.
frag<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 135
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Christopher Des Clayes wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:25:01 GMT, Catman
> <catman.RemoveThis@cuore-rustsportivo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>platypus wrote:
>>
>>> Catman wrote:
>>>> platypus wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> simonk wrote:
>>>>>> Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full
>>>>>> of reviews about cables and how important it is to audition them,
>>>>>> but in the back of my mind I can't help thinking that it's actually
>>>>>> complete bobbins, and that 13amp mains flex would do fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> My brother has worked in studios for about 25 years. He uses
>>>>> twin-and-earth at work.
>>>>>
>>>> Your point is?
>>>
>>> If the people in the industry that actually put the stuff together use
>>> fairly basic cables, then dicking around with low-oxygen 87-strand
>>> gold-plated shit is perhaps a touch precious. You'll be spending all
>>> your time trying to hear the cables.
>>
>>Or they are looking for something different from their cable? It's not
>>*quite* that cut and dired.
>>
>>> That being said, sometime in the late '80s one of the mags - probably
>>> Hi-fi Choice - did a big cable test, and included bell wire, OEM shit,
>>> and T&E. The T&E actually gave a good account of itself, and rated
>>> higher than some
>>> serious audiophile stuff. Which, at 35p a metre, got it a rock-solid
>>> Best Buy.
>>
>>As ever was. For the money, it's prolly the best there is (and better
>>than
>>many more expensive ones). IME a moderate investment can pay dividends,
>>but it's certainly not something I spend time trying to hear
>
> Hasn't anyone ever injected white noise in one end of speaker cables
> and done a FFT analysis of the output?
Yes
> Wouldn't that prove the relative merits of the cables?>
Not necessarily. You need to end up with a sound that you *like*. What I
might find brisk, you may find unbearably bright. Cable is *one* way of
'tuning' the final sound.
> I can imagine the posh cable manufacturers not being keen, but I'm
> always happier relying on repeatable quantifiable analysis than the
> opinions of the cognoscenti.
Indeed. Unfortunately, perceived quailty of sound is utterly subjective.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk" target="_blank">www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 135
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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simonk wrote:
> Catman wrote
>> simonk wrote:
>>
>>> Worth spending money on, or what?
>>
>> Only if *you* can hear it.
>
> Well there's the rub - I won't know I can hear it until I try it; but if I
> try it, will I simply convince myself it was worth it?
There are two ways of looking at that:
1) If you *think* you can hear a difference, and you prefer the sound
afterwards, does it acutally *matter*?
2) Don't Richer still offer a cable loan service? They used to (as will
many reputable HiFi shops lend you some lumps of cable to test. Nothing to
lose apart fmr time.
>>> Magazines and websites are full of
>>> reviews about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in
>>> the back of my mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete
>>> bobbins, and that 13amp mains flex would do fine.
>>
>> Well, I have spent a considerable sum on my total system. Speaker cables
>> went early in the process, more because the old stuff was falling apart.
>> That really made a difference.
>
> I'm thinking of replacing mine because they were built into the woodwork
> of
> the flat by the previous occupant. The cable looks reasonably thick, but
> I've no idea what it is, and because the bit that pokes out of the
> woodwork
> is a bit short, I've had to extend it with mains connector blocks. It's
> not ideal by any means - didn't care so much with the previous Richer
> Sounds stuff but since I upgraded I reckoned "something must be done"
There does seem little point in running anything decent through an unknown
like that. Apart from the connectors you've put on, you don't know what's
junctions an nastiness are hidden in the woodwork.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk" target="_blank">www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Oct 26, 2004 Posts: 1193
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:15 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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entwisi wrote:
> IMHO it is definitely worth doing. I have two systems, a Quad Valve
system
> running 2x Quad II monoblocks with a 22 pre-amp running out to ESL
57s
> which is a beautiful rich and smooth sound. Wired with Monster cable.
>
> For everyday use I have another Quad Pre/Power combo running to floor
> standing Kefs. These are bi-wired( hopefully soon to be bi-amped as
I've
> got my eye on another quad amp) These are wired with cheapish Supra
Rondo
> as the cables must be hidden (SWMBO) and it means that I needed 25 m
of
> the stuff to go under the floor.
>
> Both driven as required from a Micromega leader CD using Monster
> Interconnects.
<fx: nods>
You really do need to hear Dire Straits as Mr. Knopfler intended.
--
d.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 135
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Pip wrote:
> simonk <me7.RemoveThis@privacy.net> struggled to ejaculate:
>
>>Mark Derbyshire wrote
>>> simonk <me7.RemoveThis@privacy.net> came forth with the following:
>
>>>> Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full of
>>>> reviews about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in
>>>> the back of my mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete
>>>> bobbins, and that 13amp mains flex would do fine.
>
>>> I only noticed a difference when I upgraded to an Arcam Amp, cd player
>>> and
>>> KEF speaker. I upgraded the cables (bi-wired) at a later date and *I*
>>> heard no difference. If your're a complete audiophile you probably can
>>> tell the difference
>>
>>Ah yes, then there's bi-wiring ... and then bi-amping ... and then acti..
>>no, no, that's madness
>
> That's me, that is. Bi-amped Arcam Alpha 10s, bi-wired with
> multistrand silver wire. I found bi-wiring to make an audible
> difference, certainly as far as 'headroom' and 'space' around
> instruments goes; nearly as big a difference as bi-amping.
And you dind't show me earlier in the year? Bastard
<snip>
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk" target="_blank">www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Oct 26, 2004 Posts: 1193
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:12 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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entwisi wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:15:58 -0800, darsy wrote:
>
> > You really do need to hear Dire Straits as Mr. Knopfler intended.
>
> I would guess that that means live? Or would you care to expand.
no. I was referring to the apparent fact that the more people spend on
hi-fi kit, the blander, less interesting music they appear to listen
to.
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d.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Aug 29, 2003 Posts: 1219
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:35:22 +0000, simonk <me7 DeleteThis @privacy.net> wrote:
>Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full of reviews
>about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in the back of my
>mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete bobbins, and that
>13amp mains flex would do fine.
Simon, you listen to Squarepusher and Nouvelle Vague - does it really
matter?
--
darsy
rgv250|r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: May 07, 2004 Posts: 107
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:35:22 +0000, simonk wrote:
> Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full of reviews
> about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in the back of my
> mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete bobbins, and that
> 13amp mains flex would do fine.
>
> discuss ...
IMHO it is definitely worth doing. I have two systems, a Quad Valve system
running 2x Quad II monoblocks with a 22 pre-amp running out to ESL 57s
which is a beautiful rich and smooth sound. Wired with Monster cable.
For everyday use I have another Quad Pre/Power combo running to floor
standing Kefs. These are bi-wired( hopefully soon to be bi-amped as I've
got my eye on another quad amp) These are wired with cheapish Supra Rondo
as the cables must be hidden (SWMBO) and it means that I needed 25 m of
the stuff to go under the floor.
Both driven as required from a Micromega leader CD using Monster
Interconnects.
I used to sell this sort of stuff and whilst there is a load of science
behind it there is a tangible difference which I can hear even blind.
With all HiFi its only as good as your hearing. If you can hear a
difference that you prefer at a cost you are willing to pay then go for
it. If you can't don't. I used to tell customers this in the shop.
Sometimes they bought, sometimes they didn't. They were all happy that it
wasn't being 'forced' on them like a lot of independent dealers do(High
profit margin on it!) To try is the only way.
--
Entwisi
Honda XL1000V Varadero 'The Big V'
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Since: Sep 10, 2004 Posts: 614
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Richard Wood" <news2.TakeThisOut@ukrm.co.uk> wrote in news:cnjq4l$okv$1
@server.localdomain:
> Why spend 20000 on the rest of the hifi system
Good question.
--
tallbloke
Tasmin350i MatchlessG80
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Since: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 1662
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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darsy wrote:
>
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:35:22 +0000, simonk <me7.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full of reviews
> >about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in the back of my
> >mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete bobbins, and that
> >13amp mains flex would do fine.
>
> Simon, you listen to Tasmin Archer - does it really
> matter?
Only the best will do.
--
ogden, zx7r, ymmfv.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 814
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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tallbloke wrote:
>"Richard Wood" <news2 RemoveThis @ukrm.co.uk> wrote in news:cnjq4l$okv$1
>@server.localdomain:
>
>> Why spend 20000 on the rest of the hifi system
>
>Good question.
Lord Guthrie, the ex-chairman of The Arts Council, had a 100k hi-fi.
--
Ben Blaney<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables |
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Since: Sep 10, 2004 Posts: 614
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Ben Blaney <m7.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote in
news:9khrp0lf05s292648h3b0bghe45749qkeq@4ax.com:
> tallbloke wrote:
>
>>"Richard Wood" <news2.DeleteThis@ukrm.co.uk> wrote in news:cnjq4l$okv$1
>>@server.localdomain:
>>
>>> Why spend 20000 on the rest of the hifi system
>>
>>Good question.
>
> Lord Guthrie, the ex-chairman of The Arts Council, had a 100k hi-fi.
>
The Hi-est Fi I put together was a sugden A48 amp with Leake 3080
speakers. Sounded great and was LOUD. Cost me around 350 quid as second
hand kit that I had factory refurbed. Then I was living on the road and on
the water for years so I just used Ghetto Blasters.
I suppose it's like anything. You can get marginally better sound by
spending vastly greater sums of money, just like you can get a few more
mph by vastly increasing horse power. It a diminishing returns thing.
--
tallbloke
Tasmin350i MatchlessG80
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Since: Oct 30, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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simonk wrote:
> Worth spending money on, or what? Magazines and websites are full of reviews
> about cables and how important it is to audition them, but in the back of my
> mind I can't help thinking that it's actually complete bobbins, and that
> 13amp mains flex would do fine.
>
> discuss ...
Well speaking as someone who does BIG sound as a living. Don't bother
with expensive speaker cables. Get some 2.5mm2 flexible mains cable and
use that. (Or 4mm2 if you've got really long runs >100m say)
I've never used silver coated cables or any of the other bobins that
Hi-Fi shops try and sell. For interconects, get good quality cable from
someone like Belden, or Klotz, and solder the fittings on yourself.
HTH
John
--
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Since: Sep 08, 2004 Posts: 253
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: [ot] Posh loudspeaker cables [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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darsy wrote:
>
> entwisi wrote:
>
> > IMHO it is definitely worth doing. I have two systems, a Quad Valve
> system
> > running 2x Quad II monoblocks with a 22 pre-amp running out to ESL
> 57s
> > which is a beautiful rich and smooth sound. Wired with Monster
> > cable.
>
> <fx: nods>
>
> You really do need to hear Dire Straits as Mr. Knopfler intended.
I've never really understood this HiFi thing. I've got a 20 year old
Pioneer stereo I bought in Boots, and a pair of even older National
Panasonic speakers I bought in a second hand shop. At around the same
time I bought it, a 'rich' mate bought a high-end separates system - I
forget which brands. Everyone who heard both systems thought mine
sounded far better.
Then a couple of years ago another mate bought a fairly expensive amp,
CD player & speakers, recommended as a matched set by Richer Sounds. I
didn't think it sounded anywhere near as good as my ancient system, and
neither did he when he compared them.
In both cases, the separates systems just seemed to be missing
something. They had excellent clarity, but couldn't produce what I'd
call a 'full' sound. I presume we all must be missing the point or
something, not being audiophiles. But I just prefer feeling like the
sound's filling the room with a rounded, matched range, rather than the
somewhat flatter sound the expensive kit seems to provide.
Am I missing the point, or is it just down to personal taste?
--
Preston.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.muddystuff.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.muddystuff.co.uk</a>
Off-road classifieds
'02 MV Senna '96 Tiger '79 Fantic 250
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