Great Bike Gone

On Oct 13, 10:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor....RemoveThis@erols.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > gain)."
>
> I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> I have to admit that I have not ridden an ST3, but I have extensively
> ridden both the ST2 and the ST4S, and while both were certainly
> interesting machines, they are far from the "finest machines known to
> man" in my opinion. In fact, they are far from one of the finest
> machines made by Ducati, in my own experience.
>
> I think my opinion is probably closer to that of the marketplace than
> yours is, in this instance. My friend's $15,000 (new) 2002(3?) ST4s
> with ~6,000 miles on it is currently worth about $7,500 to $7,900 on
> the used bike market. The Ohlins and Brembo components, engine and
> bodywork alone, removed and sold separately, are probably worth more
> than the bike itself. Sometimes the market is a harsh arbiter of
> value, but in this case I think it speaks accurately, in that Ducati
> desperately needs to update the ST series in their line-up.

Harley hasn't updated that batwing fairing thing of yours since 1967
and you and zillions of others buy them by the truckload and pay
prices the mafia couldn't beat out of people. While it's lucky to
even share the same planet as the honorable ST in a functional sense,
at least that bike can be ridden farther than the local watering hole
without the need for back surgery. Perhaps Americans are coming
around a little, if terribly slowly.

I wish Ducati would buy that MBP valve collet mfg. The only real
downside of the ST was the frequent maintenance. Supposeldly those
collets take the valve checks to 18k mile intervals. Far more
tolerable for people who actually ride their bikes I suppose.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 13, 10:58 am, saddlebag <saddle....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 10:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor....RemoveThis@erols.com> wrote:

> > On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > > gain)."
>
> > I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> > competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> > Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> > flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> > its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> > I have to admit that I have not ridden an ST3, but I have extensively
> > ridden both the ST2 and the ST4S, and while both were certainly
> > interesting machines, they are far from the "finest machines known to
> > man" in my opinion. In fact, they are far from one of the finest
> > machines made by Ducati, in my own experience.
>
> > I think my opinion is probably closer to that of the marketplace than
> > yours is, in this instance. My friend's $15,000 (new) 2002(3?) ST4s
> > with ~6,000 miles on it is currently worth about $7,500 to $7,900 on
> > the used bike market. The Ohlins and Brembo components, engine and
> > bodywork alone, removed and sold separately, are probably worth more
> > than the bike itself. Sometimes the market is a harsh arbiter of
> > value, but in this case I think it speaks accurately, in that Ducati
> > desperately needs to update the ST series in their line-up.
>
> Harley hasn't updated that batwing fairing thing of yours since 1967
> and you and zillions of others buy them by the truckload and pay
> prices the mafia couldn't beat out of people. While it's lucky to
> even share the same planet as the honorable ST in a functional sense,
> at least that bike can be ridden farther than the local watering hole
> without the need for back surgery. Perhaps Americans are coming
> around a little, if terribly slowly.

Well, I wouldn't really begin to compare the Ducati ST2/3/4 series to
the Harley FLH. They're completely different motorcycles, purchased
and generally ridden for completely different reasons. The Sport
Touring Ducati is not a particluarly good choice for long distance
interstate mile pounding, and in turn, the heavy, low, long FLH is not
a particularly good choice for high speed mountain and/or twisty road
work. Your comment that Harley hasn't changed the batwing fairing
since 1967 is indicative of a lack of knowledge regarding just how
much the FLH is upgraded model year by model year. Harley's models
in general are upgraded more like Porsches than like Japanese 600 race
replicas!

I think it's clear that the FLH formula is one that has been proven
over time to be something that lots of riders are looking for.
Consistently high sales and spin-off model proliferation kind of
attests to that. Functionally, it does exactly what it is intended to
do, for its intended audience.

Meanwhile, the ST's woes in the marketplace certainly don't stem from
a lack of effort on Ducati's part. They've offered the bike in
numerous engine and price configurations, they addressed early
complaints about the styling and functionality of the fairing, and
they've kept the bike in the catalog in spite of extremely low sales.

The ST series competes in a niche market that is crowded with other
manufacturer's offerings, including the Honda ST1100 and now ST1300,
as well as the Yamaha FJR1300 and now the new version of the Kawasaki
Concours, not to mention both two and four-cylinder offerings from
BMW. Heck, since Honda FINALLY made factory hardbags an option on the
VFR800, even it is a competitor to Ducati. There are only so many
people in the U.S. who want a sportbike with bags and a slightly less
than repliracer crouch riding position, and Ducati hasn't hit on a
formula that will consistently draw a lot of buyers away from those
other alternatives.

> I wish Ducati would buy that MBP valve collet mfg. The only real
> downside of the ST was the frequent maintenance. Supposeldly those
> collets take the valve checks to 18k mile intervals. Far more
> tolerable for people who actually ride their bikes I suppose.

Interesting. I don't know of anyone who has owned and ridden Ducatis
(STs or otherwise) long distances who was put off by the valve
clearance inspection intervals. But I guess if it is something you
find offputting, there are others out there who feel the same way.

I know Ducati did recently extend the valve inspection intervals on
some of the their models (can't even remember the details; getting old
sucks) but don't recall if it included the ST3 or not.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 10:58 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 10:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > > > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > > > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > > > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > > > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > > > gain)."
>
> > > I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> > > competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> > > Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> > > flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> > > its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> > > I have to admit that I have not ridden an ST3, but I have extensively
> > > ridden both the ST2 and the ST4S, and while both were certainly
> > > interesting machines, they are far from the "finest machines known to
> > > man" in my opinion. In fact, they are far from one of the finest
> > > machines made by Ducati, in my own experience.
>
> > > I think my opinion is probably closer to that of the marketplace than
> > > yours is, in this instance. My friend's $15,000 (new) 2002(3?) ST4s
> > > with ~6,000 miles on it is currently worth about $7,500 to $7,900 on
> > > the used bike market. The Ohlins and Brembo components, engine and
> > > bodywork alone, removed and sold separately, are probably worth more
> > > than the bike itself. Sometimes the market is a harsh arbiter of
> > > value, but in this case I think it speaks accurately, in that Ducati
> > > desperately needs to update the ST series in their line-up.
>
> > Harley hasn't updated that batwing fairing thing of yours since 1967
> > and you and zillions of others buy them by the truckload and pay
> > prices the mafia couldn't beat out of people. While it's lucky to
> > even share the same planet as the honorable ST in a functional sense,
> > at least that bike can be ridden farther than the local watering hole
> > without the need for back surgery. Perhaps Americans are coming
> > around a little, if terribly slowly.
>
> Well, I wouldn't really begin to compare the Ducati ST2/3/4 series to
> the Harley FLH. They're completely different motorcycles, purchased
> and generally ridden for completely different reasons. The Sport
> Touring Ducati is not a particluarly good choice for long distance
> interstate mile pounding,

I've ridden them to West Virginy and Tenn many times. Gary Eagan won
an Ironbutt on the damn thing.

> and in turn, the heavy, low, long FLH is not
> a particularly good choice for high speed mountain and/or twisty road
> work. Your comment that Harley hasn't changed the batwing fairing
> since 1967 is indicative of a lack of knowledge regarding just how
> much the FLH is upgraded model year by model year. Harley's models
> in general are upgraded more like Porsches than like Japanese 600 race
> replicas!

Well, I will give you that at least some of them now can run tubeless
tires.

> I think it's clear that the FLH formula is one that has been proven
> over time to be something that lots of riders are looking for.
> Consistently high sales and spin-off model proliferation kind of
> attests to that. Functionally, it does exactly what it is intended to
> do, for its intended audience.
>
> Meanwhile, the ST's woes in the marketplace certainly don't stem from
> a lack of effort on Ducati's part. They've offered the bike in
> numerous engine and price configurations, they addressed early
> complaints about the styling and functionality of the fairing, and
> they've kept the bike in the catalog in spite of extremely low sales.



> The ST series competes in a niche market that is crowded with other
> manufacturer's offerings, including the Honda ST1100 and now ST1300,
> as well as the Yamaha FJR1300

Therein lies the problem. People tend to buy spec sheets. I love the
FJR and with it's great wind protection it allows me to ride
comfortably longer each year. Especially since my ST4s wouldn't start
below about 40°F. Funny, the ST4 never had such an issue. Anyway,
while the FJR is more powerful and a little more useful, it's still no
ST come playtime.


> Interesting. I don't know of anyone who has owned and ridden Ducatis
> (STs or otherwise) long distances who was put off by the valve
> clearance inspection intervals. But I guess if it is something you
> find offputting, there are others out there who feel the same way.

That's because most of us that own them were aware of it going into it
and can afford to pay for it. Still, people who've come up expecting
cheap and practically maintenance free look at the ST with a jaundiced
eye. I don't even have to look at the valves on the FJR for ~27k
miles!

> I know Ducati did recently extend the valve inspection intervals on
> some of the their models (can't even remember the details; getting old
> sucks) but don't recall if it included the ST3 or not.

Well even if it did, it'd only take the interval from 6k to 7.5k
miles. Why Duc simply won't use the MBP's superior design is baffling.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 13, 2:15 pm, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 10:58 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 13, 10:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > > > > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > > > > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > > > > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > > > > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > > > > gain)."
>
> > > > I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> > > > competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> > > > Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> > > > flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> > > > its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> > > > I have to admit that I have not ridden an ST3, but I have extensively
> > > > ridden both the ST2 and the ST4S, and while both were certainly
> > > > interesting machines, they are far from the "finest machines known to
> > > > man" in my opinion. In fact, they are far from one of the finest
> > > > machines made by Ducati, in my own experience.
>
> > > > I think my opinion is probably closer to that of the marketplace than
> > > > yours is, in this instance. My friend's $15,000 (new) 2002(3?) ST4s
> > > > with ~6,000 miles on it is currently worth about $7,500 to $7,900 on
> > > > the used bike market. The Ohlins and Brembo components, engine and
> > > > bodywork alone, removed and sold separately, are probably worth more
> > > > than the bike itself. Sometimes the market is a harsh arbiter of
> > > > value, but in this case I think it speaks accurately, in that Ducati
> > > > desperately needs to update the ST series in their line-up.
>
> > > Harley hasn't updated that batwing fairing thing of yours since 1967
> > > and you and zillions of others buy them by the truckload and pay
> > > prices the mafia couldn't beat out of people. While it's lucky to
> > > even share the same planet as the honorable ST in a functional sense,
> > > at least that bike can be ridden farther than the local watering hole
> > > without the need for back surgery. Perhaps Americans are coming
> > > around a little, if terribly slowly.
>
> > Well, I wouldn't really begin to compare the Ducati ST2/3/4 series to
> > the Harley FLH. They're completely different motorcycles, purchased
> > and generally ridden for completely different reasons. The Sport
> > Touring Ducati is not a particluarly good choice for long distance
> > interstate mile pounding,
>
> I've ridden them to West Virginy and Tenn many times. Gary Eagan won
> an Ironbutt on the damn thing.
>
> > and in turn, the heavy, low, long FLH is not
> > a particularly good choice for high speed mountain and/or twisty road
> > work. Your comment that Harley hasn't changed the batwing fairing
> > since 1967 is indicative of a lack of knowledge regarding just how
> > much the FLH is upgraded model year by model year. Harley's models
> > in general are upgraded more like Porsches than like Japanese 600 race
> > replicas!
>
> Well, I will give you that at least some of them now can run tubeless
> tires.
>
> > I think it's clear that the FLH formula is one that has been proven
> > over time to be something that lots of riders are looking for.
> > Consistently high sales and spin-off model proliferation kind of
> > attests to that. Functionally, it does exactly what it is intended to
> > do, for its intended audience.
>
> > Meanwhile, the ST's woes in the marketplace certainly don't stem from
> > a lack of effort on Ducati's part. They've offered the bike in
> > numerous engine and price configurations, they addressed early
> > complaints about the styling and functionality of the fairing, and
> > they've kept the bike in the catalog in spite of extremely low sales.
> > The ST series competes in a niche market that is crowded with other
> > manufacturer's offerings, including the Honda ST1100 and now ST1300,
> > as well as the Yamaha FJR1300
>
> Therein lies the problem. People tend to buy spec sheets. I love the
> FJR and with it's great wind protection it allows me to ride
> comfortably longer each year. Especially since my ST4s wouldn't start
> below about 40°F. Funny, the ST4 never had such an issue. Anyway,
> while the FJR is more powerful and a little more useful, it's still no
> ST come playtime.
>
> > Interesting. I don't know of anyone who has owned and ridden Ducatis
> > (STs or otherwise) long distances who was put off by the valve
> > clearance inspection intervals. But I guess if it is something you
> > find offputting, there are others out there who feel the same way.
>
> That's because most of us that own them were aware of it going into it
> and can afford to pay for it. Still, people who've come up expecting
> cheap and practically maintenance free look at the ST with a jaundiced
> eye. I don't even have to look at the valves on the FJR for ~27k
> miles!
>
> > I know Ducati did recently extend the valve inspection intervals on
> > some of the their models (can't even remember the details; getting old
> > sucks) but don't recall if it included the ST3 or not.
>
> Well even if it did, it'd only take the interval from 6k to 7.5k
> miles. Why Duc simply won't use the MBP's superior design is baffling.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I wonder how the sales on the GEN III Sprint ST have been going. I
know only 1 guy who's bougth one and it was a year old. They screwed
up the ergos (too high, low bars & balls in the tank seating) is too
much "crotch rocket like" for my liking. I do like the looks and the
accesories plus it's sportier/faster now but strictly for 6 foot or
taller folks. Ironically the 675 has the same problem and is the
tallest of all the 600SS class bikes with a 33.5" seat height.

Bob Nixon.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 3:40 am, Vaughn <vbra....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> How frickin hard is it to make a really fast canyon riding ST bike, with
> quality ergos, and a decent passenger space? Almost no manufacturer
> has got it right.

The Duc ST with a Corbin seat was all that and a bag of jalepeno
chips.

TTT tried the big V-Strom without success. I rode the previous
generation Tiger and could not really get on with it tallness. It
felt like riding a bike on stiltz. I think they may have got a good
compromise going with the new Tiger, but I'll not really know til I
try one.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 3:28 am, Vaughn <vbra... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 9:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... DeleteThis @erols.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > > gain)."
>
> > I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> > competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> > Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> > flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> > its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> The point here about the market is both sad, and telling.
>
> The friend I rode with today mentioned during a break that at the most
> recent trackday he attended, there were a number of crashes. Two of
> them were, unfortunately, 1098 riders and their bikes appear to be
> totalled.
>
> The super-coolness of the bike seems to be attracting a lot of
> squids. Or maybe the bike is hard to ride...?

If nothing else, it sounds like it may become hard to insure.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 13, 9:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > gain)."
>
> I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>

The point here about the market is both sad, and telling.

The friend I rode with today mentioned during a break that at the most
recent trackday he attended, there were a number of crashes. Two of
them were, unfortunately, 1098 riders and their bikes appear to be
totalled.

The super-coolness of the bike seems to be attracting a lot of
squids. Or maybe the bike is hard to ride...?
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 6:30 am, saddlebag <saddle... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 3:40 am, Vaughn <vbra... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How frickin hard is it to make a really fast canyon riding ST bike, with
> > quality ergos, and a decent passenger space? Almost no manufacturer
> > has got it right.
>
> The Duc ST with a Corbin seat was all that and a bag of jalepeno
> chips.

Except, it depends on your build. I have a 32" sleeve, and I am
crouched forward on any of the STs almost as much as I am on a race
replica. Plus, the wind protection is minimal, the suspension is far
firmer than I want for anything longer than a 250 mile day (to be
fair, the ST4s with the Ohlins suspension could be tuned to be soft
enough for longer days) there's no radio for superslab days, the bags
are hard to load, the bag retaining strings break too easily, and the
optional tail trunk is mounted too high and too far back and has too
much of an ill effect on handling, and the passenger accomodations are
little more than a race replica "perch." Other than that, it "was"
"all that" .... for me.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 8:35 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor....DeleteThis@erols.com> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 6:30 am, saddlebag <saddle....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 14, 3:40 am, Vaughn <vbra....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > How frickin hard is it to make a really fast canyon riding ST bike, with
> > > quality ergos, and a decent passenger space? Almost no manufacturer
> > > has got it right.
>
> > The Duc ST with a Corbin seat was all that and a bag of jalepeno
> > chips.
>
> Except, it depends on your build. I have a 32" sleeve, and I am
> crouched forward on any of the STs almost as much as I am on a race
> replica.

True, I had 1" desmo risers that turned it from a 1 hour race bike to
an all day performer. Amazing the difference an inch can make.

> Plus, the wind protection is minimal

And it was terribly turbulent with the OEM sceen with the flip at the
top. A Zero Gravity windscreen fixed that. And call me crazy, but I
like the airflow. At highway speeds it unweights the arms, plus it IS
a motorcycle and actually feels like one.

> the suspension is far firmer than I want for anything longer than a 250 mile day (to be
> fair, the ST4s with the Ohlins suspension could be tuned to be soft
> enough for longer days) there's no radio for superslab days

These days an IPOD or XM will fit in your pocket if you're not
inclined to buy a little RAM mount for it.

> the bags are hard to load

Huh? Two words...bag liners.

> the bag retaining strings break too easily

I never had a problem with them. I even sold both sets on the ST list
with both still fully functional. Both STs had over 30k and dozens of
trips on them.

> and the optional tail trunk is mounted too high and too far back and has too
> much of an ill effect on handling

Ya think? I never even noticed it. Hell, I kept it after the wreck
and have it mounted to the FJR now. I like the trunk so much better
than the side bags I find myself rarely mounting them on either bike
unless I'm talking the wife away somewhere for a week.

I tell ya, the latest purchase I made was a magnetic mini tank bag.
My full sized ones cover the tank caps on both bikes and somewhere
along the line I got a metal shaving stuck to a magnet and scratched
both tanks sliding the damn bag backwards to put gas in the things.
Anyway, this mini bag holds cellphone, XM, wallet, garage door opener,
warm weather gloves etc is nice and compact to carry around and
doesn't interfere with access to the tank. I drug it into the shop
with me when I bought some gloves the other day and the guy at the
counter said those bags were selling like hotcakes.

> and the passenger accomodations are little more than a race replica "perch."

Ah yes, a long distance mount it is not without a little seat help.
But then Corbin comes to the rescue for just about every bike I've
owned.

> Other than that, it "was" "all that" .... for me.

Yeah I know, your Harley was perfect out of the plant and you've not
sunk a buck in it since.

Purrrfection:
http://pictures.aol.com/ap/myAlbums.do?albumId=40858.2110.1159623301832.1
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 10:29 am, saddlebag <saddle....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:

> I tell ya, the latest purchase I made was a magnetic mini tank bag.
> My full sized ones cover the tank caps on both bikes and somewhere
> along the line I got a metal shaving stuck to a magnet and scratched
> both tanks sliding the damn bag backwards to put gas in the things.
> Anyway, this mini bag holds cellphone, XM, wallet, garage door opener,
> warm weather gloves etc is nice and compact to carry around and
> doesn't interfere with access to the tank. I drug it into the shop
> with me when I bought some gloves the other day and the guy at the
> counter said those bags were selling like hotcakes.

On the Monster S4Rs, I use a SW Mototech "snap-on" mini tankbag. It
comes with a little adapter that bolts to the fuel cap retention ring
and stays with the bike. Then the tank back snaps into that ring, and
"floats" above the tank. First tankbag I've had in almost 30 years of
riding that *hasn't* damaged the tank. Plus, when I want to, I can
replace the tank bag with a video camera, which has a matching mount
and just snaps into the same place on the tank. I really like both
items.

> > Other than that, it "was" "all that" .... for me.
>
> Yeah I know, your Harley was perfect out of the plant and you've not
> sunk a buck in it since.

Heh. Touche!
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 12:05 am, Bob Nixon <bigrex2....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 2:15 pm, saddlebag <saddle....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor....TakeThisOut@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 13, 10:58 am, saddlebag <saddle....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 13, 10:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor....TakeThisOut@erols.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > > > > > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > > > > > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > > > > > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > > > > > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > > > > > gain)."
>
> > > > > I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> > > > > competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> > > > > Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> > > > > flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> > > > > its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> > > > > I have to admit that I have not ridden an ST3, but I have extensively
> > > > > ridden both the ST2 and the ST4S, and while both were certainly
> > > > > interesting machines, they are far from the "finest machines known to
> > > > > man" in my opinion. In fact, they are far from one of the finest
> > > > > machines made by Ducati, in my own experience.
>
> > > > > I think my opinion is probably closer to that of the marketplace than
> > > > > yours is, in this instance. My friend's $15,000 (new) 2002(3?) ST4s
> > > > > with ~6,000 miles on it is currently worth about $7,500 to $7,900 on
> > > > > the used bike market. The Ohlins and Brembo components, engine and
> > > > > bodywork alone, removed and sold separately, are probably worth more
> > > > > than the bike itself. Sometimes the market is a harsh arbiter of
> > > > > value, but in this case I think it speaks accurately, in that Ducati
> > > > > desperately needs to update the ST series in their line-up.
>
> > > > Harley hasn't updated that batwing fairing thing of yours since 1967
> > > > and you and zillions of others buy them by the truckload and pay
> > > > prices the mafia couldn't beat out of people. While it's lucky to
> > > > even share the same planet as the honorable ST in a functional sense,
> > > > at least that bike can be ridden farther than the local watering hole
> > > > without the need for back surgery. Perhaps Americans are coming
> > > > around a little, if terribly slowly.
>
> > > Well, I wouldn't really begin to compare the Ducati ST2/3/4 series to
> > > the Harley FLH. They're completely different motorcycles, purchased
> > > and generally ridden for completely different reasons. The Sport
> > > Touring Ducati is not a particluarly good choice for long distance
> > > interstate mile pounding,
>
> > I've ridden them to West Virginy and Tenn many times. Gary Eagan won
> > an Ironbutt on the damn thing.
>
> > > and in turn, the heavy, low, long FLH is not
> > > a particularly good choice for high speed mountain and/or twisty road
> > > work. Your comment that Harley hasn't changed the batwing fairing
> > > since 1967 is indicative of a lack of knowledge regarding just how
> > > much the FLH is upgraded model year by model year. Harley's models
> > > in general are upgraded more like Porsches than like Japanese 600 race
> > > replicas!
>
> > Well, I will give you that at least some of them now can run tubeless
> > tires.
>
> > > I think it's clear that the FLH formula is one that has been proven
> > > over time to be something that lots of riders are looking for.
> > > Consistently high sales and spin-off model proliferation kind of
> > > attests to that. Functionally, it does exactly what it is intended to
> > > do, for its intended audience.
>
> > > Meanwhile, the ST's woes in the marketplace certainly don't stem from
> > > a lack of effort on Ducati's part. They've offered the bike in
> > > numerous engine and price configurations, they addressed early
> > > complaints about the styling and functionality of the fairing, and
> > > they've kept the bike in the catalog in spite of extremely low sales.
> > > The ST series competes in a niche market that is crowded with other
> > > manufacturer's offerings, including the Honda ST1100 and now ST1300,
> > > as well as the Yamaha FJR1300
>
> > Therein lies the problem. People tend to buy spec sheets. I love the
> > FJR and with it's great wind protection it allows me to ride
> > comfortably longer each year. Especially since my ST4s wouldn't start
> > below about 40°F. Funny, the ST4 never had such an issue. Anyway,
> > while the FJR is more powerful and a little more useful, it's still no
> > ST come playtime.
>
> > > Interesting. I don't know of anyone who has owned and ridden Ducatis
> > > (STs or otherwise) long distances who was put off by the valve
> > > clearance inspection intervals. But I guess if it is something you
> > > find offputting, there are others out there who feel the same way.
>
> > That's because most of us that own them were aware of it going into it
> > and can afford to pay for it. Still, people who've come up expecting
> > cheap and practically maintenance free look at the ST with a jaundiced
> > eye. I don't even have to look at the valves on the FJR for ~27k
> > miles!
>
> > > I know Ducati did recently extend the valve inspection intervals on
> > > some of the their models (can't even remember the details; getting old
> > > sucks) but don't recall if it included the ST3 or not.
>
> > Well even if it did, it'd only take the interval from 6k to 7.5k
> > miles. Why Duc simply won't use the MBP's superior design is baffling.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I wonder how the sales on the GEN III Sprint ST have been going. I
> know only 1 guy who's bougth one and it was a year old. They screwed
> up the ergos (too high, low bars & balls in the tank seating) is too
> much "crotch rocket like" for my liking. I do like the looks and the
> accesories plus it's sportier/faster now but strictly for 6 foot or
> taller folks. Ironically the 675 has the same problem and is the
> tallest of all the 600SS class bikes with a 33.5" seat height.
>
> Bob Nixon.

Very interesting discussion here.

I run a lot of miles each year, and generally love to rail scenic
byways. The ST dilemna plagued me - until I got a V-Strom 1000 and
put a bunch more into mods. Bike performs flawlessly, carries it all
(including passenger ladyfinger who loves to fly and ride) in comfort,
and offers exploring bonus points.

All the rest of the big ST machines (honda, connie, fjr, BMW RS,
Triumph ST) all compromise flickability or passenger comfort. How
frickin hard is it to make a really fast canyon riding ST bike, with
quality ergos, and a decent passenger space? Almost no manufacturer
has got it right.

Even the Multistrada, the new Tiger 1050, the Sprint ST, and the ST3/4
compromise a lot and in maintenance and cost, and aren't really all
that passenger friendly.

I want a bike that performs like any/all of those, but offers a nice
space out back.

The Uly really comes close, but I want one with a Rotax 1125....
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 6:31 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 3:28 am, Vaughn <vbra... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 9:32 am, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor... RemoveThis @erols.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 13, 6:34 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > American silliness kills off one of the finest machines known to man:
>
> > > > "For the first 6 months of this year ending June 30th Ducati increased
> > > > their sale of Superbikes from 2,583 to 8,599 (this is 232.9%).
> > > > Meanwhile, the sale of Sport Touring bikes dropped from 984 to 684
> > > > (-30.5%). North American sales increased from 4,715 to 5,816 (a 23.4%
> > > > gain)."
>
> > > I guess it depends on the rider. The 1098, of course, is not
> > > competing with the ST3. It is competing for pent-up demand of Ducati
> > > Superbikes since the demise of the 998. The 999 was a dismal sales
> > > flop, and it had nothing to do with the motorcycle's functionality;
> > > its styling simply wasn't accepted by Ducati Superbike buyers.
>
> > The point here about the market is both sad, and telling.
>
> > The friend I rode with today mentioned during a break that at the most
> > recent trackday he attended, there were a number of crashes. Two of
> > them were, unfortunately, 1098 riders and their bikes appear to be
> > totalled.
>
> > The super-coolness of the bike seems to be attracting a lot of
> > squids. Or maybe the bike is hard to ride...?
>
> If nothing else, it sounds like it may become hard to insure.

My racing partner just took one out for a test ride yesterday. With
his wife on back. He hit a deer about a month and a half ago on his
GSXR1000, and badly damaged it. She likes the rush of a superbike, so
he was thinking about replacing both his Ducati 955 Superbike and the
Gixxer with a 1098. He liked the bike, but it was much more
uncomfortable for her than the Gixxer, and the riding position was
significantly more racetrack oriented than even the Gixxer, so he's
probably going to get the Suzuki fixed, instead.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Bike Gone 

On Oct 14, 10:29 am, saddlebag <saddle... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:

> Purrrfection:http://pictures.aol.com/ap/myAlbums.do?albumId=40858.2110.11596233018...

Er ah that is purrfection:

http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/saddlebag/2e90rGnGKJJXD4ZTL5MXkmEleH...fLgCfp3
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