Ducati tech & MGP

"Brutus" <se6bq5 RemoveThis @teleport.com> wrote

> Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is
> biased towards the
> lastest/maybe greatest. One advantage that a chrome moly frame has over an
> aluminum frame is the
> ease of fabrication. It's much easier to change the frame geometry and
> alternative issues like side
> loading, engine placement etc.The aluminum frames require new castings ...

Depending on the requirements, there are plenty of times and places where
old tech is either equal-to or better-than the newest stuff.

For instance, in my job I frequently use a hard-wired early '60s technology
Strobo-Tuner: an electronic instrument that detects tiny variations in the
pitch of a musical note, and then displays them in an analog fashion using a
neon strobe light and a spinning translucent disc.

It's true that the equivalent modern digital instrument is considerably more
accurate, but the Strobo-Tuner can already "hear" pitch more precisely than
can the human ear, so that point is moot.

But the old analog Strobo-Tuner does something that it's modern offspring
cannot do: it can display a note's entire spectrum of harmonics from the
fundamental up, including their relative motions, all on the same screen and
all at the same time; while the digital tuners are limited to displaying
only one frequency at a time, and if they *did* include enough dedicated
readouts to display all the harmonics at once they'd be almost impossible to
read, not to mention impossibly expensive.

There's also the fact that my trusty old Strobo-Tuner has no solid-state
components, and when it breaks down -as it has a few times- you can simply
open it up and replace the bad part or parts with a soldering iron. When
your modern computer-driven digital tuner goes belly-up, you have to toss
the whole thing in the trash and go buy a new one for a couple of hundred
bucks.

I think engineers sometimes get carried away with designing and building new
things simply because they're new, rather than asking themselves "Does this
thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be
practically utilized on the job?"
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

On Oct 18, 4:35 am, "P. Roehling" <nowayj....TakeThisOut@uh-uh.edu> wrote:
> "Brutus" <se6....TakeThisOut@teleport.com> wrote
>
> > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is
> > biased towards the
> > lastest/maybe greatest. One advantage that a chrome moly frame has over an
> > aluminum frame is the
> > ease of fabrication. It's much easier to change the frame geometry and
> > alternative issues like side
> > loading, engine placement etc.The aluminum frames require new castings ...
>
> Depending on the requirements, there are plenty of times and places where
> old tech is either equal-to or better-than the newest stuff.
>
> For instance, in my job I frequently use a hard-wired early '60s technology
> Strobo-Tuner: an electronic instrument that detects tiny variations in the
> pitch of a musical note, and then displays them in an analog fashion using a
> neon strobe light and a spinning translucent disc.
>
> It's true that the equivalent modern digital instrument is considerably more
> accurate, but the Strobo-Tuner can already "hear" pitch more precisely than
> can the human ear, so that point is moot.
>
> But the old analog Strobo-Tuner does something that it's modern offspring
> cannot do: it can display a note's entire spectrum of harmonics from the
> fundamental up, including their relative motions, all on the same screen and
> all at the same time; while the digital tuners are limited to displaying
> only one frequency at a time, and if they *did* include enough dedicated
> readouts to display all the harmonics at once they'd be almost impossible to
> read, not to mention impossibly expensive.
>
> There's also the fact that my trusty old Strobo-Tuner has no solid-state
> components, and when it breaks down -as it has a few times- you can simply
> open it up and replace the bad part or parts with a soldering iron. When
> your modern computer-driven digital tuner goes belly-up, you have to toss
> the whole thing in the trash and go buy a new one for a couple of hundred
> bucks.
>
> I think engineers sometimes get carried away with designing and building new
> things simply because they're new, rather than asking themselves "Does this
> thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be
> practically utilized on the job?"

Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you
drop it than a spinning disc. And what use are harmonics (out to
20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just
keep turning the key and plucking no?

In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little
solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never
had to solder anything to it. The real showcase of old tech is the
desmo system that has one yet another championship.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"saddlebag" <saddlebag RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:1192703795.687935.104280@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 18, 4:35 am, "P. Roehling" <nowayj... RemoveThis @uh-uh.edu> wrote:
> > "Brutus" <se6... RemoveThis @teleport.com> wrote
> >
> > > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is
> > > biased towards the
> > > lastest/maybe greatest. One advantage that a chrome moly frame has over an
> > > aluminum frame is the
> > > ease of fabrication. It's much easier to change the frame geometry and
> > > alternative issues like side
> > > loading, engine placement etc.The aluminum frames require new castings ...
> >
> > Depending on the requirements, there are plenty of times and places where
> > old tech is either equal-to or better-than the newest stuff.
> >
> > For instance, in my job I frequently use a hard-wired early '60s technology
> > Strobo-Tuner: an electronic instrument that detects tiny variations in the
> > pitch of a musical note, and then displays them in an analog fashion using a
> > neon strobe light and a spinning translucent disc.
> >
> > It's true that the equivalent modern digital instrument is considerably more
> > accurate, but the Strobo-Tuner can already "hear" pitch more precisely than
> > can the human ear, so that point is moot.
> >
> > But the old analog Strobo-Tuner does something that it's modern offspring
> > cannot do: it can display a note's entire spectrum of harmonics from the
> > fundamental up, including their relative motions, all on the same screen and
> > all at the same time; while the digital tuners are limited to displaying
> > only one frequency at a time, and if they *did* include enough dedicated
> > readouts to display all the harmonics at once they'd be almost impossible to
> > read, not to mention impossibly expensive.
> >
> > There's also the fact that my trusty old Strobo-Tuner has no solid-state
> > components, and when it breaks down -as it has a few times- you can simply
> > open it up and replace the bad part or parts with a soldering iron. When
> > your modern computer-driven digital tuner goes belly-up, you have to toss
> > the whole thing in the trash and go buy a new one for a couple of hundred
> > bucks.
> >
> > I think engineers sometimes get carried away with designing and building new
> > things simply because they're new, rather than asking themselves "Does this
> > thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be
> > practically utilized on the job?"
>
> Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you
> drop it than a spinning disc. And what use are harmonics (out to
> 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just
> keep turning the key and plucking no?
>
> In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little
> solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never
> had to solder anything to it.

>The real showcase of old tech is the
> desmo system that has one yet another championship.

But the desmo valve activation system is more modern then the valve spring system it repalced

I have to also admit that I'm also into tube technology

One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the digital instrument display.
It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian daylight conditions, although
I'm sure that it's just a poor implementation. Probably a weight/cost saving issue in the Ducati
engineering and production departments decision making, after all we gotta keep the price down on
this 15K bike.
















>
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"saddlebag" <saddlebag.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote

> Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you
> drop it than a spinning disc.

Oddly enough, I seldom or never drop expensive electronic instruments. I
call it "being careful". (And

> And what use are harmonics (out to
> 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just
> keep turning the key and plucking no?

No. Harmonics are what produce tonality, and having one badly out of whack
can produce a "wolf note" that sounds both louder and harsher than the rest
of the notes in the chromatic scale. Knowing which harmonic -or string- is
out of synch can point you towards a cure.

For instance, although it isn't a "wolf note" situation I've recently seen
two Fender Strats on which the bass string produced such a strong 5th above
harmonic that you could actually hear both notes sounding on every fret.
Turned out to be incurable until we switched necks.

> In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little
> solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never
> had to solder anything to it.

For use as a tuner they work just fine. For use as an instrument used to
detect -and hopefully define- tonal problems they're pretty much useless.

> The real showcase of old tech is the
> desmo system that has one yet another championship.

There are lots of examples, and we use them every day, but we don't tend to
think of them as being "old tech" simply because so far they've not been
superceded.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

On Oct 18, 10:21 am, "Brutus" <se6....TakeThisOut@teleport.com> wrote:
> "saddlebag" <saddle....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1192703795.687935.104280@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> > On Oct 18, 4:35 am, "P. Roehling" <nowayj....TakeThisOut@uh-uh.edu> wrote:
> > > "Brutus" <se6....TakeThisOut@teleport.com> wrote
>
> > > > Somehow I get the feeling the Bob's world view (at least technical) is
> > > > biased towards the
> > > > lastest/maybe greatest. One advantage that a chrome moly frame has over an
> > > > aluminum frame is the
> > > > ease of fabrication. It's much easier to change the frame geometry and
> > > > alternative issues like side
> > > > loading, engine placement etc.The aluminum frames require new castings ...
>
> > > Depending on the requirements, there are plenty of times and places where
> > > old tech is either equal-to or better-than the newest stuff.
>
> > > For instance, in my job I frequently use a hard-wired early '60s technology
> > > Strobo-Tuner: an electronic instrument that detects tiny variations in the
> > > pitch of a musical note, and then displays them in an analog fashion using a
> > > neon strobe light and a spinning translucent disc.
>
> > > It's true that the equivalent modern digital instrument is considerably more
> > > accurate, but the Strobo-Tuner can already "hear" pitch more precisely than
> > > can the human ear, so that point is moot.
>
> > > But the old analog Strobo-Tuner does something that it's modern offspring
> > > cannot do: it can display a note's entire spectrum of harmonics from the
> > > fundamental up, including their relative motions, all on the same screen and
> > > all at the same time; while the digital tuners are limited to displaying
> > > only one frequency at a time, and if they *did* include enough dedicated
> > > readouts to display all the harmonics at once they'd be almost impossible to
> > > read, not to mention impossibly expensive.
>
> > > There's also the fact that my trusty old Strobo-Tuner has no solid-state
> > > components, and when it breaks down -as it has a few times- you can simply
> > > open it up and replace the bad part or parts with a soldering iron. When
> > > your modern computer-driven digital tuner goes belly-up, you have to toss
> > > the whole thing in the trash and go buy a new one for a couple of hundred
> > > bucks.

Same on a bike with an old analog cable speedometer. My RZ-350 speedo
is dead nuts to over 110MPH compared to a GPS unit.

> > > I think engineers sometimes get carried away with designing and building new
> > > things simply because they're new, rather than asking themselves "Does this
> > > thing actually deliver a useful service in such a way that it can be
> > > practically utilized on the job?"

Certainly true but more often than not, new technology is generally a
GOOD thing.

> > Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you
> > drop it than a spinning disc. And what use are harmonics (out to
> > 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just
> > keep turning the key and plucking no?

Actually even unheard (odd order) harmonics can make music sound
richer, with greater spatial content and add a more realistic quality.

> > In general, I agree with your point, but I've had one of those little
> > solid state tuners for a long time and it works great and I've never
> > had to solder anything to it.
> >The real showcase of old tech is the
> > desmo system that has one yet another championship.
>
> But the desmo valve activation system is more modern then the valve spring system it repalced :-

Sure is. Those old Dusenberg model J's from the 30's with supercharger
and desmodromic actuated valves were well after either early vacuum
actuated intake valves or cam & spring steel tech to keep tension on
the valve during it's operation. BTW, another old technology that was
in some ways is better than poppet valves is the sleeve valve engine
which allows > volume to pass when opened.

However the Jet engine was overtaking the old radial piston designs so
"Bristol" a British AC company dropped the design in Lou of jet
engines in the late 40's. The sleeve valve had it's problems but so
did Desmodromics throughout the years of refinement. I think you'll
find that lots of superior designs went by the wayside due to various
reasons. For instance, the two stroke and Wankel engines are IMO
"potentially" superior to the wasteful four stroke engine but both
designer laziness and more importantly public opinion against their
bad (unrefined qualities) has doomed them both. The Diesel is a good
example of having a bad stigma surrounding it due to smoke, noise and
poor cold weather operation but because the Diesel design is SO
superior in other respects the world could not afford to ignore it and
with new technology has been reborn or at least so outside the stodgy
USA truck only perspective.

> I have to also admit that I'm also into tube technology

I recall you mentioning that awhile back, Brutus. Are you also into
all non-ferrous connectors etc and silver litz speaker wires @ >$2000
a pop for 12 footers? Anyway for a guy in his 60's (who typically has
limited hearing range of maybe 12-15K) anyway, what's the sense? And
old records that have a 50-60db max dynamic range and are limited to
about 40 db stereo separation;) Also don't those old analog
transformers in tube power amps limit the low end to about FM radio
quality or 50HZ before they taking a nosedive? But so...so sweet
sounding, eh?

But hell, I'm not one to tell you how to spend your $$. I love music
too but mainly for it's quality of either the message purveyed and or
the emotional content (now much it stirs your soul) and I'm perfectly
content with my mid-fi priced multi channel gear with plain old copper
speaker wire and at best a FET=(works harmonically very similar to a
vacuum tube) integrated Dolby 5:1,DTS amplifier. I'm also not such a
snob to not banish compressed music as long as it's sampled at least
160K.


> One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the digital instrument display.
> It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian daylight conditions, although
> I'm sure that it's just a poor implementation. Probably a weight/cost saving issue in the Ducati
> engineering and production departments decision making, after all we gotta keep the price down on
> this 15K bike.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bah... that's a hoot. $ Try $20K minimum OTD if you want them to put
out >135HP.


Bob Nixon.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

On Oct 18, 2:25 pm, "P. Roehling" <nowayj... DeleteThis @uh-uh.edu> wrote:
> "saddlebag" <saddle... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote
>
> > Yeah, but the solid state stuff is far less likely to break if you
> > drop it than a spinning disc.
>
> Oddly enough, I seldom or never drop expensive electronic instruments. I
> call it "being careful". (And
>
> > And what use are harmonics (out to
> > 20kHz hearing, logrithmically?)? If the string's not in tune just
> > keep turning the key and plucking no?
>
> No. Harmonics are what produce tonality, and having one badly out of whack
> can produce a "wolf note" that sounds both louder and harsher than the rest
> of the notes in the chromatic scale. Knowing which harmonic -or string- is
> out of synch can point you towards a cure.
>
> For instance, although it isn't a "wolf note" situation I've recently seen
> two Fender Strats on which the bass string produced such a strong 5th above
> harmonic that you could actually hear both notes sounding on every fret.
> Turned out to be incurable until we switched necks.

Me thinks you're a perfectionist. Me, I drink another beer and turn
up the distortion.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"saddlebag" <saddlebag.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote

> Me thinks you're a perfectionist.

You spelled it wrong: it's not "perfectionist", it's "professional".

http://www.banjowizard.com/Angelpics.htm

> Me, I drink another beer and turn
> up the distortion.

You must have been an Allman Brothers fan in your youth. They once woke me
up at 8:00 a.m. doing a soundcheck for their afternoon concert at Santa
Barbara State University. (I think it was in 1966.)

There were two unusual things about that: (A) they were awake enough to do a
sound check at 8:00 a.m. and (B) the concert site was slightly over three
miles line-of-sight away from the Santa Barbara Airport where I and my pit
crew were camping out over night in the pits at the SCCA sports car races.
The word *LOUD* doesn't begin to describe the amount of volume they put out.

Later in the day, you could actually hear the band playing over the sounds
of the entire class A & B production field at full cry.

Amazing.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"Brutus" <se6bq5.DeleteThis@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:13hf5fjj88lf04f@corp.supernews.com...
>
> One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the
> digital instrument display.
> It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian
> daylight conditions, although
> I'm sure that it's just a poor implementation. Probably a weight/cost
> saving issue in the Ducati
> engineering and production departments decision making, after all we gotta
> keep the price down on
> this 15K bike.
>
I've never liked digital displays, on instruments, on stereo equipment, on
speedos or tachs. In the split second you can spare to glance at your
instrument panel, a needle can give a lot of info whereas it takes longer to
process the digital info. Also on my VFR I can "sort of" see the tach
needle out of the corner of my eye without taking my eyes off the road. No
way you can do that with a digital readout.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"Brutus" <se6bq5.RemoveThis@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:13hfk7c6glmfo09@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> I recently read a claim that if the U.S.of A. replaced all of it's
> vehicles with diesel engines we
> would not be dependant on Middle East oil.... praise Allah...
>
>

Only if we all grew our own corn/soybeans and refined the oil manually to
make home-made bio"diesel". Otherwise... diesel oil is, as you must know, a
petroleum product just like gasoline. The U.S. does not have the diesel
refining capacity to swtich cars over to diesels all at once it would take
many years to re-tool the refineries to produce more diesel and less
gasoline. I recently took my wife's VW on a trip to San Francisco from
Canada... it cost me about $60 each way for fuel at sixty-something mpg on
the highway. Can't beat it.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"Dave" <dspear99ca.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:HyQRi.11423$GO5.7456@edtnps90...
>
> "Brutus" <se6bq5.DeleteThis@teleport.com> wrote in message
> news:13hfk7c6glmfo09@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >
> > I recently read a claim that if the U.S.of A. replaced all of it's
> > vehicles with diesel engines we
> > would not be dependant on Middle East oil.... praise Allah...
> >
> >
>
> Only if we all grew our own corn/soybeans and refined the oil manually to
> make home-made bio"diesel". Otherwise... diesel oil is, as you must know, a
> petroleum product just like gasoline. The U.S. does not have the diesel
> refining capacity to swtich cars over to diesels all at once it would take
> many years to re-tool the refineries to produce more diesel and less
> gasoline. I recently took my wife's VW on a trip to San Francisco from
> Canada... it cost me about $60 each way for fuel at sixty-something mpg on
> the highway. Can't beat it.

I presume that's their point=better fuel milage...Impractical, you bet, hell we could even call for
everyone to ride bicycles, yup, that get you elected..... We do have a modern technology to aleveate
the problem, it's called birth-control...
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"Brutus" <se6bq5 RemoveThis @teleport.com> wrote in message
news:13hfpjojslo513d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> We do have a modern technology to aleveate
> the problem, it's called birth-control...
>

Thank you.
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

"saddlebag" <saddlebag DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote

>> http://www.banjowizard.com/Angelpics.htm
>
> Craftsmen are cool. Volume is where the money's at though.

I figured out quite early that I was unlikely to become rich, so instead I
did exactly what I wanted to do. Imagine my surprise when I ended up doing
okay financially anyway.

>> > Me, I drink another beer and turn
>> > up the distortion.
>>
>> You must have been an Allman Brothers fan in your youth. They once woke
>> me
>> up at 8:00 a.m. doing a soundcheck for their afternoon concert at Santa
>> Barbara State University. (I think it was in 1966.)
>
> I was all of one then.

That's okay. If your mom had opened the widow to your room you'd have still
been able to hear them, even on the east coast...
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP 

On Oct 18, 12:21 pm, "Brutus" <se6....TakeThisOut@teleport.com> wrote:

> One of the features on my new Duc that I really don't cotton too is the digital instrument display.
> It is just hard to see some of the most basic information in certian daylight conditions

Have you tried a tinted windscreen? I have a light tint Fabbri screen
on mine, and it cuts the glare off of the instrument cluster. I have
had no readability problems so far.

--
DOD #4747
2007 Ducati 1098
2003 Kawasaki ZZR1200
1999 Kawasaki KLR650
 >> Stay informed about: Ducati tech & MGP