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Since: May 28, 2005
Posts: 362
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:55 am
Post subject: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths.
Archived from groups: alt>motorcycles (more info?)
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I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
"beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
them.
Thus pushing them onto bigger bikes that they cannot handle -- which
gets them into trouble, causing needless accidents and deaths.
Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
"beginner's bike."
Not to mention that the 350-450 class of motorcycle has nearly
disappeared. |
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Since: Apr 25, 2005
Posts: 139
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:11 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:40:30 GMT, ls650{modelname}@sbcglobal.net
(Paladin) wrote:
I agree with you that these bikes are not necessarily just 'trainers'.
I notice when I look at used bikes on Craigslist or Ebay, anyone
selling a bike smaller than 750cc will say 'good starter bike'.
I think it's partly the fault of marketing, and of motorcycle mags,
which are, after all, a branch of marketing. Small bikes are damned
wth faint praise, as toys for dillettantes. The whole purpose of
owning a bike is more related to lifestyle and self-image than to
transportation.
One obvious clue to this is that the 'standard' motorcycle has nearly
disappeared. Even most 'standard' bikes made today are styled like a
sportbike or cruiser so the buyer doesn't have to admit, even to
himself, that he bought it just for commuting to work.
>Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
>"beginner's bike."
>
>Not to mention that the 350-450 class of motorcycle has nearly
>disappeared.
They used to be great bikes too! I had a Honda 350/4 years ago that
was a great little bike. Plenty of power for the freeway, smooth,
good-handling, etc. I could kick-start it with my hand! The 350 twin
was probably the biggest-selling bike in the late 70s. And the Yamaha
RD350 was the legendary sport bike.
At the motorcycle show a few months ago I saw a new company making
smaller bikes. One was a 200cc single and its big brother was a 250
twin, I think it used the motor from the Yamaha Virago 250.
Their advertising made it clear that this was a transportation
alternative rather than a piece of sports equipment. The bike was
made in China and very cheap, like $2000. You could own this bike for
$35/month and it got 50-60 mpg and it was practical for the freeway.
I wish I could remember the name so I could point out their website.
The thing was, the bike was a little Harley clone. It came with
leather saddlebags outlined with leather fringe, a teardrop tank,
forward footpegs, lots of chrome, a fat rear tire, etc. It looked
almost like something a Shriner would ride in a parade!
There's nothing wrong with appealing to the prospective buyer's sense
of style. And I'd certainly think newbies would be better off on a
baby Harley than a little R6. But it's interesting that they couldn't
conceive, design and sell such a bike as simply transportation, like
a big scooter. |
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Since: May 11, 2005
Posts: 11
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:13 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Paladin" wrote ...
>I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
> capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
> But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
> them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
> them.
>
> Thus pushing them onto bigger bikes that they cannot handle -- which
> gets them into trouble, causing needless accidents and deaths.
>
> Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
> "beginner's bike."
(snip)
Please ... it's not that someone calls them "beginner's bikes" .. it's just
a natural male trait ... folks on 250cc machines want a 500 .. folks on 500
machines want a 650 .. folks on 650 machines want a 900 .. and so on. OR,
if those folks don't lust after a bigger displacement bike, they want to
know how to make what they have faster (cut weight, new exhaust, new carb,
etc)
Folks who start out on 250 machines learn the limitations of the machine
BEFORE they learn the limitations of their riding skills.
--
Richard Amirault N1JDU
Boston, MA, USA Go Fly A Kite >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: May 28, 2005
Posts: 362
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:13:41 -0400, "Richard Amirault"
<ramirault.DeleteThis@erols.com> wrote:
>"Paladin" wrote ...
>>I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
>> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
>> capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
>> But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
>> them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
>> them.
>>
>> Thus pushing them onto bigger bikes that they cannot handle -- which
>> gets them into trouble, causing needless accidents and deaths.
>>
>> Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
>> "beginner's bike."
>(snip)
>
>Please ... it's not that someone calls them "beginner's bikes" .. it's just
>a natural male trait ... folks on 250cc machines want a 500 .. folks on 500
>machines want a 650 .. folks on 650 machines want a 900 .. and so on. OR,
>if those folks don't lust after a bigger displacement bike, they want to
>know how to make what they have faster (cut weight, new exhaust, new carb,
>etc)
Is it a "natural male trait?" Or is it advertising, driven by the
fact that the bigger bikes have a greater profit margin? As I adn
many other males do not possess this 'trait' I tend to doubt that it
is a natural trait. Marketing explains it much better. Do we have to
mindlessly follow the corporate line that more is better, telling
people that they *will* want ever bigger motorcycles -- or can we
suggest that riders look at what they want the motorcycle to do and
choose accordingly?
>Folks who start out on 250 machines learn the limitations of the machine
>BEFORE they learn the limitations of their riding skills.
This does not make sense. What "limitations of the machine" are you
talking about? Comparing my old DT175 to the LS650 both have
limitations that the other doesn't. Cruisers have limitations
dual-purpose bikes don't, and vise versa, as do sportbikes and
scooters. >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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We don't warn them, we tell them. You will soon outgrow those dinky
little bikes. I did in three weeks. The Savage was not for me, but
the SV650 sure is! Hey, if you like those little things, more power to
ya! But this ain't some little european country the size of Rhode
Island we got here, this is is the USA, where even Rhode Island is the
size of Rhode Island! Big country = bigger bikes.
The SV650 is a bigger bike, but I learned to handle it. Rode a Honda
Hawk over the weekend...what a POS. I wept when I got back on the 650.
 >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:09 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 208
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:05 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 2005-08-05, Paladin penned:
> I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city
> riding, capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and
> freeways. But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban
> bikes we call them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will
> "soon outgrow" them.
>
> Thus pushing them onto bigger bikes that they cannot handle -- which
> gets them into trouble, causing needless accidents and deaths.
>
> Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
> "beginner's bike."
>
> Not to mention that the 350-450 class of motorcycle has nearly
> disappeared.
There's a point to what you're saying, but it's also the case that not
all 250s are alike, just as all 600s, liter bikes, etc. are not alike.
Some 250s are certainly not great for dealing with freeways, for
example.
--
monique
newbie rider
'96 bmw r1100r >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: May 28, 2005
Posts: 362
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:12 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:49:02 +0100, "Beav"
<beavis.original RemoveThis @ntlwoxoorld.com> wrote:
>
>"Paladin" <ls650{modelname}@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:42f368a8.465627218@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
>>I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
>> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
>> capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
>> But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
>> them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
>> them.
>
>The problem with the 250's is that people DO outgrow them, but usually for
>the wrong reasons. A newbie biker would be more than happy with a 250, but
>then they get together with non newbie riders and feel like "Mr Poorman"
>when everyone else is riding 1000cc rockets and they're on their 250's. Peer
>pressure is what it's known as isn't it?.....
That is not outgrowing the 250. That is succumbing to peer pressure.
That is what causes people to get into trouble and what causes
needless deaths. The bad part is that the pressure is from people who
are uncomfortable on their superbikes but had succumbed to pressure
themselves and need to pressure others to justify their failure. >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 1246
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:55 am
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Paladin" <ls650{modelname}@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:42f9f84a.895614484@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:49:02 +0100, "Beav"
> <beavis.original RemoveThis @ntlwoxoorld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Paladin" <ls650{modelname}@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>news:42f368a8.465627218@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
>>>I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
>>> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
>>> capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
>>> But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
>>> them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
>>> them.
>>
>>The problem with the 250's is that people DO outgrow them, but usually for
>>the wrong reasons. A newbie biker would be more than happy with a 250, but
>>then they get together with non newbie riders and feel like "Mr Poorman"
>>when everyone else is riding 1000cc rockets and they're on their 250's.
>>Peer
>>pressure is what it's known as isn't it?.....
>
> That is not outgrowing the 250. That is succumbing to peer pressure.
I thought that's exactly what I said. (just two lines up in fact)
> That is what causes people to get into trouble and what causes
> needless deaths. The bad part is that the pressure is from people who
> are uncomfortable on their superbikes but had succumbed to pressure
> themselves and need to pressure others to justify their failure.
Or even those who enjoy their superbikes and think their new found friend
would enjoy them too.
--
Beav
Reply to "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com" (with the obvious
changes) >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Apr 10, 2005
Posts: 108
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
> capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
> But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
> them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
> them.
>
> Thus pushing them onto bigger bikes that they cannot handle -- which
> gets them into trouble, causing needless accidents and deaths.
>
> Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
> "beginner's bike."
>
> Not to mention that the 350-450 class of motorcycle has nearly
> disappeared.
Been riding for more than 20 years, on and off. And my current ride is a
21 year old 350. Yea, its a 2 stroke, so thet helps. I would like R600,
but I dont really need that much bike.
--
1984 RZ350 >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 217
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:45 am
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I agree with all most all the post above. I've been riding for 25+
years on the road and I have a 50cc scooter, a 100cc Capriolo and a
800cc Suzuki.
I recently tuaght my daughter the basics and she got her temps. You
think I would turn her loose on the Suzuki? No friggin' way! If she
dropped the scooter, she would pick it up and go on her way, if she
dropped the Volusia (800cc "cruiser") she would be crushed by it and
not even be able to pick it up!
If you can't pick it up, you shouldn't ride it. (beginners at least)
I rode for the first 10 years of my "riding career" on bikes smaller
than 500cc and that was nearly too much for me several times. If I'd
have had access to something like todays 600cc sportbikes (even an SV
650) I'd have been a human crayon or in a wheelchair long ago.
Start small, live to ride big. >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 217
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:10 am
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Aug 13, 2007
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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The reason most people try to push 500 cc + is most 250 cc can't handle the
75 Mph speedlimit. when everyone around you is going 75 to 90 and your
putting along at 55 max someone is going to die. and it mostlikly wont be
the cage rider who rear ended you.
"Paladin" <ls650{modelname}@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:42f368a8.465627218@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
>I have noticed that many people push the 250 class of motorcycles as
> "beginner's bikes". The 250 is actually a good size for city riding,
> capable of keeping up with traffic on surface streets and freeways.
> But rather than call them middleweights or city or urban bikes we call
> them "beginner's bikes" and warn people that they will "soon outgrow"
> them.
>
> Thus pushing them onto bigger bikes that they cannot handle -- which
> gets them into trouble, causing needless accidents and deaths.
>
> Simply because you sneer at the middleweight motorcytcle as a
> "beginner's bike."
>
> Not to mention that the 350-450 class of motorcycle has nearly
> disappeared. >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Aug 01, 2006
Posts: 107
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:19 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"eek" <ftgpilot3.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote
> The reason most people try to push 500 cc + is most 250 cc can't handle
the
> 75 Mph speedlimit. when everyone around you is going 75 to 90 and your
> putting along at 55 max someone is going to die. and it mostlikly wont be
> the cage rider who rear ended you.
Spoken like a true unbanite.
Something like 94% of the land area of the US is still RURAL. One can get
around just fine anywhere in the country without using Interstates or
Freeways and without exceeding 65 mph AND be perfectly safe in doing so.
I think that most newbies have no desire to whiz down the Interstate at 80
mph. Those that do are fools. IMHO, a newbie has no business on an
Interstate until they have completed at least 2 full riding seasons
...........except maybe for short distances when traffic is light.
And yes, I recommend 250s for first bikes, not so much because of the power
but because of the weight. After 40+ years of riding all sorts of different
bikes, the only one I have left is a 250. Most FUN I've ever had riding and
it's never touched an Interstate.
If I could get a 350 or 400 under 350 pounds, I'd have that instead but it
wouldn't see the Interstate either. >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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Since: Jul 09, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Aug 14, 3:19 pm, "Ken Abrams" <harvest_t....RemoveThis@scum.suckers> wrote:
> Something like 94% of the land area of the US is still RURAL. One can get
> around just fine anywhere in the country without using Interstates or
> Freeways and without exceeding 65 mph AND be perfectly safe in doing so.
That's where the fun is, usually.. Lots of twisty roads and scenic
paths.
> And yes, I recommend 250s for first bikes, not so much because of the power
> but because of the weight. After 40+ years of riding all sorts of different
> bikes, the only one I have left is a 250. Most FUN I've ever had riding and
> it's never touched an Interstate.
Funny thing, when I was taking the MSF course on their 250 standards
(I had a Suzuki), I couldn't get comfortable at all, until I rode on
the pillion. No kidding, it was like when Bubba Smith pulled out the
front seat of the compact car in _Police Academy_.
Let's just say that anything smaller or lower than an 1150GS just
literally would not fit me. Though maybe a Big Ruckus or Executive
Burgman (or, dare I dream, a C1?!) would be a fun runabout..
(and when I borrowed a K75 from the dealer when I had mine in for
service, it was really like some kind of Shriner freakshow.. K75
would be a good size for my mom  >> Stay informed about: "Beginner's Bikes" cause deaths. |
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