Assen MotoGP race

"Morten Becker-Eriksen" <mbe.RemoveThis@c2i.net> wrote in message
news:40ddc6a3@news.broadpark.no...
 > "Mark N" <menusbaum.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote
  > > A fine, dry race, and it seems like things have settled into place a bit
  > > now, six races into the year.

 > But not really exiting. The two in front walked away and never changed
 > plases until the last lap.

Yeah, it wasn't terribly exiting in the sense of a traditional 125 race. But
I thought it a good race, and there certainly was tension. Before Barros
went down it was the first time this year that it really looked like someone
other than Sete, Vale and Max might win, but it lost a lot after that. Marco
made his little run, although that threat ended quickly. After that it was
the fight for the last podium spot, but we didn't get to see enough of that,
as usual. It was pretty clear that Rossi was waiting until the last couple
laps to make his move, so why couldn't they have shown us more of the rest?

  > > the first time. It continues to look like Rossi's year, unless Honda can
  > > step it up to give Sete a machine advantage. Vale's going to win it if
it
  > > continues to be straight man-to-man out there.

 > Comment from Honda mechanic:" If Sete don't win we will come with a lot of
 > changes for the next race." Seems like they have a few new gadgets they
want
 > to try out.

Interesting. I do think Honda will have a response to the Yamaha challenge,
just as they put Ducati down last year. The question beyond that is the
riders, and is it too little, too late?

  > > - The Hondas did step it up some today, with Biaggi, Hayden, Edwards
  > > 4th-6th. I'm not surprised that Nicky and Colin moved through the field
 > like
  > > that, particularly after seeing the warmup times, and it just shows how
 > much
  > > the weather and resulting grid positions hurt them. Biaggi came through
in
  > > the race after an abysmal weekend, and fell just short of a podium.
Honda,
  > > give these guys some parts...

 > Also show how they are strugelig to get a good setup without Rossi.

I'm not sure about that. I seriously doubt Rossi was sharing setup
information with Biaggi last year. That Honda came out with that new chassis
with two tests to go and then it rained at both certainly put everyone
behind. My guess is that it's possible that Rossi and Burgess might have
told Honda that the damned thing wasn't working and they should try to
change it, while the factory team now has Barros, who isn't much good in
that area, and Hayden, who's too green to do much there, and the satellite
guys have to be too concerned about sucking up to HRC in order to get the
sweet stuff. Not a good situation for machine development and refinement.
But it's also possible that the current direction was based on Rossi's input
from last year. Again, I think it's way too simplistic to think the
improvement at Yamaha and the relative slide at Honda is all Rossi's R&D
skills.

  > > Marco
  > > didn't seem to be effected at all by his arm

 > Quite the oposite actually. He had what we in Norway call "arm pump" and
 > that's what the operation fixed. Rally quite small surgery with two small
 > cuts in the lower arm relieving the blod veins free from blocking muscles.
 > He could push harder after mid race than he ever done before he said on
the
 > press conference. His arm were working. I know very well how bad that arm
 > can be as I have the exact same problem and lost quite a few positions
 > because of it. To bad we didn't see the hole fight between him and Biaggi.

What I meant was that he didn't seem to be negatively effected by the
aftermath of his surgery, which he was concerned about going in.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark N <menusbaum.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
 > - Rossi seemed to be making little errors toward the end,

So was Sete. The thing that makes it worth watching is the sheer speed
of both of them. We've had several races this year where Vale and Sete
have been trading fastest laps the whole race. This is shaping up into
one of those classic grudge matches like Bayliss-Edwards in WSB. I think
they're pushing each other into the best riding we've ever seen from
both of them. 6 races in, level on points, 8 to go and everyone else is
nowhere.

 > - The Hondas did step it up some today

One story about all this is that Michelin introduced a new "large" rear
tyre This gives more grip but has made the Hondas chatter at the front.
This freaks out most of them and the only rider able to ride through it
is Sete. Chatter is a weird thing that's very hard to solve. As much by
chance as an anything it hasn't affected the Yamahas in the same way.

 > - The guy we can finally dismiss now is Barros, who made a run at one of
 >his best tracks, as high as 2nd, but then crashed once again.

Any news yet on whether the crash was a mechanical failure? On the
replay it did look like an engine lockup.

 >Rube did a fine job hanging with the faster guys and
 >7th is a great result for him, top Ducati again today.

And he stayed on where Bayliss didn't.

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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.TakeThisOut@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:OohWMQCJUo3AFAwr@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 > Mark N <menusbaum.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:

 > The thing that makes it worth watching is the sheer speed
 > of both of them. We've had several races this year where Vale and Sete
 > have been trading fastest laps the whole race. This is shaping up into
 > one of those classic grudge matches like Bayliss-Edwards in WSB. I think
 > they're pushing each other into the best riding we've ever seen from
 > both of them. 6 races in, level on points, 8 to go and everyone else is
 > nowhere.

 > One story about all this is that Michelin introduced a new "large" rear
 > tyre This gives more grip but has made the Hondas chatter at the front.
 > This freaks out most of them and the only rider able to ride through it
 > is Sete. Chatter is a weird thing that's very hard to solve. As much by
 > chance as an anything it hasn't affected the Yamahas in the same way.

The thing about this man-to-man battle as I see it, which really is the
championship at this point (btw, 10 races to go), is that it isn't two guys
who are on an equal level. If you look at the development of the year so far
at the front:

SoAfr - Rossi and Biaggi, Sete 3rd but unable to hand with the front two,
ends up 7 seconds back. On the Honda side, Barros is 19 back, Hayden 24,
Edwards 28, and on the Yamaha side Checa is 39 back, Melandri 44.

Spain - Rain, and rain expert Gibs wins, Biaggi hangs until he sees winning
is too risky, takes 2nd, Rossi struggles and holds onto 4th. In qualifying
Rossi is fastest in the dry again, and Sete is a bit faster than Max again.
On the others, Barros is 3rd, Hayden a closing 5th, Edwards a freezing 7th;
Checa is 6th and Melandri crashes while running 3rd.

France - Supposedly because of the points lead Gibernau gets factory-level
parts from HRC, and then is on pole and wins the race. Biaggi can't hang
with him and takes 3rd (his qualifying position), but beats Rossi in 4th
(who qualified 4th), who is 4 seconds behind Sete. On the others, Checa
makes a move, aided by Rossi setup info, qualifies and finishes 2nd, and
Melandri ends up 18 seconds back in 6th; Edwards is 5th 16 back, Barros 28
back in 7th, Hayden 11th and 47 back after an off-track excursion. So here's
where the equation changed between Max and Sete, and where it started to
become clear how good the Yamaha is becoming, despite Rossi's problems.

Italy - Consistent with this, Gibernau is again on pole, Biaggi outqualified
by both Repsol guys and Melandri. In the race(s), Rossi is out front, Sete
is right with him, and Max barely can hold them, at the end of the 1st
segment 1.3 seconds back. Barros is a closing 4th, 3 seconds back, Edwards
8th and 20 back, Hayden crashed out trying to hold the leaders early on
after qualifying 2nd. Melandri is 5th, 10 back, and Checa also crashes,
trying to make up for bad luck in qualifying.

Catalunya - Same story, Gibs again on pole, Rossi 2nd, Biaggi 4th, and it
the race it's Rossi edging Sete, and Biaggi's serious tire problems have him
8th, 24 seconds back. On the others, Melandri is on the box for the first
time, 14 seconds back, Checa is 4th, 19 back, and for Honda it's Edwards 5th
and 21 back, Barros crashing trying to stay with the top two early on, and
Hayden suffering a mechanical after a terrible start. In qualifying the
Repsol guys were 3rd and 6th, Melandri 5th, and Edwards and Checa back in
11th and 12th.

Dutch TT - Rain throws qualifying for a loop, but the dry time results in
Vale on pole, Sete 3rd, Max 12th. Checa is 2nd, Melandri 4th for Yamaha;
Barros is 6th, Edwards 13th, Hayden 16th for Honda. In the race it's Sete
vs. Vale again, and Vale follows until the last lap and does his thing then.
Barros tries again to run with them and goes down again, Melandri is again
on the box, 10 seconds back, despite his run-thru at the chicane, and Checa
is a fading 9th, 15 back. For Honda, Biaggi has a great start and ends up a
hair off the box in 4th, 10 back, and Hayden and Edwards charge throughout
the race and end up 5th and 6th, right behind Max.

So what's the pattern? On balance the Yamaha looks like the better bike,
despite the Honda power advantage. Yamaha doesn't have the political parts
distribution issues, so it's Rossi on point and Checa and Melandri
benefitting from being right behind (I assume Abe is just a test mule). All
indications seem to be that Michelin has gone in a direction that helps
Yamaha, probably based on Vale's input, and doesn't help Honda. The Repsol
team gets the best hard stuff at Honda by contract, but Barrros and Hayden
(at the moment) can't make full use of it, and it seems that Sete moved up
to that level in France, and has made use of it. But he's not quite the
rider Rossi is, and that's started to show.

Meanwhile Biaggi falls farther off their pace, my guess because he's not
supported by Honda and maybe Michelin the way those guys are. Not a shock
given his history and the Pons/Honda relationship, but it looks very unfair
and maybe unwise given his effort and results through Jerez. [After the
Assen race he said "I have to thank Honda, we worked with them to resolve
the problems" - wonder what that alludes to?] Edwards continues to struggle,
complaining more of the chatter problem than anyone else, and it's not
entirely clear why - riding style, lack of experience with GP bikes and
tires, lack of experience with the RCV, pushing harder on lesser equipment,
all of the above. Hayden may be getting close to a breakthrough, and we have
to assume he has the equipment to do it, but Barros seems to have melted
under the pressure to perform at the level expected when he was hired.

At Yamaha, Melandri is doing as well as can possibly be expected, given his
experience level on these bikes. Checa has his moments, but I think in the
end he's also showing his weaknesses as a rider - he's just not in Rossi's
league, on balance. But these guys are showing just how good the package is
right now, the best in GP. That indicates that Rossi should be winning,
which he is doing. Sete needs to have a machine advantage in order to beat
him; right now his pluses are horsepower and machine-like consistency in his
riding, but the bike just doesn't work as well through the corners. Beyond
that his best hope is that the level of effort Vale has to put in now will
eventually result in a critical error and a crash, but that could cut the
other way as well. Mistakes by both could put Max back in it, but he needs
the parts to stay there.

  > > - The guy we can finally dismiss now is Barros, who made a run at one of
  > >his best tracks, as high as 2nd, but then crashed once again.

 > Any news yet on whether the crash was a mechanical failure? On the
 > replay it did look like an engine lockup.

I haven't seen anything. Barros doesn't seem to have a clue about it - "I
don't know what happened in the crash; the back let go and next thing I know
I'm hitting the ground".

  > >Rube did a fine job hanging with the faster guys and
  > >7th is a great result for him, top Ducati again today.

 > And he stayed on where Bayliss didn't.

Bayliss had a mechanical, he didn't crash. Looked like Hodgson is getting
back into the swing now, getting healthy. He'll be interesting to watch over
the next few races.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:54:22 +0200
"Morten Becker-Eriksen" <mbe.RemoveThis@c2i.net> wrote:

  > > A fine, dry race, and it seems like things have settled into place a bit
  > > now, six races into the year.
 >
 > But not really exiting. The two in front walked away and never changed
 > plases until the last lap.

It could use a little extra suspense, indeed.
But did you see the 125cc race? Wow... very exciting end of the race.

Also pretty cool: a 16yr old girl made her 125cc GP debut.
After Katje Poensgen's appearance in 250cc, we now have
Marketa Janakova in 125cc GPs.

Go Marketa!

Bram

--
"For the costs of subsidized agriculture in the EU, we can have all 56 million
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"Julian Bond" <julian_bond.DeleteThis@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:OohWMQCJUo3AFAwr@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
 > Mark N <menusbaum.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
  > > - Rossi seemed to be making little errors toward the end,
 >
 > So was Sete.

They were both racing at the limit. Rossi didn't concede, and through all
his hard work earned the nod of good luck towards the end. He could have
overcooked that, and admitted he thought he would fall , which indicates a
very enjoyable rivalry. This one was about winning and taking immense risk
in showing the other, and damn the points.

 > ... I think
 > they're pushing each other into the best riding we've ever seen from
 > both of them. 6 races in, level on points, 8 to go and everyone else is
 > nowhere.

Yeah, they were the best riders, Assen has long been known as a riders'
circuit, and to me the result confirms that Rossi, Gibernau and Melandri
happen to be the best riders in MotoGP right now. Melandri has shown that
all the talk about his "potential" wasn't in vain, he has developed
awesomely, even more so considering the injury streak he's had.

 > ... Chatter is a weird thing that's very hard to solve. As much by
 > chance as an anything it hasn't affected the Yamahas in the same way.

Too many coincidences here at this point in time. Rossi joins and it's
increasing momentum for Yamaha. Tires introduce chatter and Yamaha is the
one that solves it. Everything seems to clearly point in the direction that
Rossi is not only the fastest, but also the most capable develpment and
setup rider in the paddock these days. Honda still has the most resources
but with so many riders they get contradictory input on what it is they
should be focusing on. I have to admit I'd love to see someone else hand
Rossi defeat, but I got to hand it to the guy: he's the best at all levels,
the statistical correlation is starting to be overwhelming.

Unless Honda manages to do something dramatic that gives Gibernau a clear
bike advantage this looks like it's going to be Rossi's year again. All he
had to do was come to grips and work on the Yamaha, and it's been all good
for Yamaha, it's been all downhill for Honda.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"pablo" <pablo.at.simply DeleteThis @hombre.dot.net> wrote in message
news:6AIDc.78797$7F6.60788@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
 > Yeah, they were the best riders, Assen has long been known as a riders'
 > circuit, and to me the result confirms that Rossi, Gibernau and Melandri
 > happen to be the best riders in MotoGP right now. Melandri has shown that
 > all the talk about his "potential" wasn't in vain, he has developed
 > awesomely, even more so considering the injury streak he's had.

Let's remember that you said that - Melandri is a better rider than Biaggi,
Capirossi, Roberts, Edwards, Bayliss, Hayden, Barros, Nakano, et al. Because
he finished 3rd two races in a row. If you look at Hayden and Melandri,
Hayden was faster over race distance if you drop the first lap, even though
he had to pass a bunch of guys to get from 14th to 5th; Melandri only passed
Biaggi. Assen is a rider's circuit in a very traditional European sense. A
lot of the non-Euro greats hated the place, including Lawson and Doohan, and
it's not like they didn't have success there.

 > Too many coincidences here at this point in time. Rossi joins and it's
 > increasing momentum for Yamaha. Tires introduce chatter and Yamaha is the
 > one that solves it. Everything seems to clearly point in the direction
that
 > Rossi is not only the fastest, but also the most capable develpment and
 > setup rider in the paddock these days.

I don't recall Yamaha having a chatter problem with the new tires, and I
don't recall Honda having the problem with the old chassis. Edwards did say
the new tires were designed to help the Yamaha, but don't do anything for
the Honda. Maybe the story is that Michelin's top and favored rider is
Rossi, and they depend on his input more than anyone else? Maybe Honda kind
of f*cked up some on the new chassis, including handing it to their best
riders a month before the start of the season? Maybe in time, with help from
Michelin, Honda will reassert themselves on top?

 > Unless Honda manages to do something dramatic that gives Gibernau a clear
 > bike advantage this looks like it's going to be Rossi's year again. All he
 > had to do was come to grips and work on the Yamaha, and it's been all good
 > for Yamaha, it's been all downhill for Honda.

I don't think any of this is too shocking, rather I think it will be a
matter of time before Honda puts themselves in a position to really
challenge Rossi and Yamaha. Last year at this time people were saying Ducati
would bury Honda, and look where they are now. This is tougher, because at
the moment they probably don't have a guy who can get it done without a
notable machine advantage. Perhaps too late for this championship, but next
year might be a different story. If Rossi is all you say, Yamaha should be
completely dominant by next year.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Mark N" <menusbaum RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:O8Odne06Sum0a0PdRVn2uw@giganews.com...
 > ... Sete moved up
 > to that level in France, and has made use of it. But he's not quite the
 > rider Rossi is, and that's started to show.

What you say does not have much logic. If the Yamaha is so clearly the
better bike by now, Gibernau can't be too shabby a rider if he's the only
one that manages to give Rossi fits and finishes within a hundredth of a
second of Rossi. *If* the Yamaha is truly superior, then this year's results
seem to indicate that Gibernau is the only rider truly near Rossi from a
talent point of view. But even that represents too uch of a simplification.
However, your logic is flawed: after the long intro on the machines and this
and that, you still draw flawed conclusions.

 > Meanwhile Biaggi falls farther off their pace, my guess because he's not
 > supported by Honda and maybe Michelin the way those guys are. Not a shock
 > given his history and the Pons/Honda relationship, but it looks very
unfair
 > and maybe unwise given his effort and results through Jerez.

What yousay is merely speculative. It was annnounced he had been bumped up
to factory level, and Pons' relationship with Honda is excellent. But even
if what you say is true, Biaggi did start the year at at least material
equity with Gibernau, and the fact is he simply didn;t ride that material as
well as Gibernau did. Biaggi at this point in time seems to be happy to hang
among the top, but unwilling to commit himself to the 110% necessary to win.

 > Assen race he said "I have to thank Honda, we worked with them to resolve
 > the problems" - wonder what that alludes to?

Perhaps that indeed they did give him special factory parts. He *is* HRC
supported as per official statements.

 > ... Edwards continues to struggle,
 > complaining more of the chatter problem than anyone else, and it's not
 > entirely clear why - riding style, lack of experience with GP bikes and
 > tires, lack of experience with the RCV, pushing harder on lesser
equipment,
 > all of the above. ...

He too had his chance earlier in the year and can't complain too much about
material preferences this year given the fact he's been nowhere close to his
teammate from race 1. In any case, in a close championship like this, Honda
desperately needs more bikes able to intercept and challenge the Yamahas.
Gibernau can not win alone, he needs more support, and he's not going to get
it from Biaggi, and the Repsol guys are so far off the pace that even they
are not going to be able to provide tactical support. It makes sense to try
to give Edwards everything he needs to succeed, and I must assume the team
manager knows it and is doing it. But seemingly Edwards still needs more
acclimatization or something.

 > ... Hayden may be getting close to a breakthrough, and we have
 > to assume he has the equipment to do it, but Barros seems to have melted
 > under the pressure to perform at the level expected when he was hired.

Barros definitely will probably never get such a chance again. Hayden...
it's nice to finish in the top 5 consistently, but to llive up to the hype
and the support he's received he needs to score a win this year finally,
otherwise HRC might feel humiliated and look for an entirely new stable.

 > At Yamaha, Melandri is doing as well as can possibly be expected, given
his
 > experience level on these bikes.

Better. he's beating guys with far more experience on this bike. Very
impressive.

 > ... Checa has his moments, but I think in the
 > end he's also showing his weaknesses as a rider - he's just not in Rossi's
 > league, on balance.

No one ever expected him to be, I think. Checa is a solid top 10 rider, but
eventually giuys like him will get displaced by younger guys that can place
similarly and offer some growth for the future. Checa isn't going to win a
title going forward.

 > ... Sete needs to have a machine advantage in order to beat
 > him; right now his pluses are horsepower and machine-like consistency in
his
 > riding, but the bike just doesn't work as well through the corners. ...

Well, this contradicts what you write above about him clearly not being as
good a rider as Rossi. So either you're not sure about the Yam being the
better bike, or you're not sure about Rossi being the better rider. Claiming
both can be done, but is in no way really supported by the existing
evidence.

 > I haven't seen anything. Barros doesn't seem to have a clue about it - "I
 > don't know what happened in the crash; the back let go and next thing I
know
 > I'm hitting the ground".

Well, the last thing he needs to be doing career wise is to state anything
that may be constructed as criticism of his bike. I suspect even if it had
been mechanical failure he'd shut up at this point.

 > ... Hodgson is getting
 > back into the swing now, getting healthy. He'll be interesting to watch
over
 > the next few races.

Yeah, but it's sad how far behind Ducati has fallen, how could that happen?
And it is indeed a big surprise to see Xaus so clearly heading their effort.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"pablo" <pablo.at.simply RemoveThis @hombre.dot.net> wrote

 > "Mark N" <menusbaum RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote
  > > ... Sete moved up
  > > to that level in France, and has made use of it. But he's not quite the
  > > rider Rossi is, and that's started to show.

 > What you say does not have much logic. If the Yamaha is so clearly the
 > better bike by now, Gibernau can't be too shabby a rider if he's the only
 > one that manages to give Rossi fits and finishes within a hundredth of a
 > second of Rossi. *If* the Yamaha is truly superior, then this year's
results
 > seem to indicate that Gibernau is the only rider truly near Rossi from a
 > talent point of view. But even that represents too uch of a
simplification.
 > However, your logic is flawed: after the long intro on the machines and
this
 > and that, you still draw flawed conclusions.

The problem is you read, "on balance the Yamaha looks like the better bike,
despite the Honda power advantage" and you think that means "Yamaha is so
clearly the better bike" and "truly superior". You read, "Sete... is not
quite the rider Rossi is" and you think that means he is a very "shabby
rider". So what are your conclusions?

  > > Meanwhile Biaggi falls farther off their pace, my guess because he's not
  > > supported by Honda and maybe Michelin the way those guys are. Not a
shock
  > > given his history and the Pons/Honda relationship, but it looks very
 > unfair
  > > and maybe unwise given his effort and results through Jerez.

 > What yousay is merely speculative. It was annnounced he had been bumped up
 > to factory level, and Pons' relationship with Honda is excellent. But even
 > if what you say is true, Biaggi did start the year at at least material
 > equity with Gibernau, and the fact is he simply didn;t ride that material
as
 > well as Gibernau did. Biaggi at this point in time seems to be happy to
hang
 > among the top, but unwilling to commit himself to the 110% necessary to
win.

It is speculative, of course. I haven't heard that it was announced that
Biaggi had been bumped up to factory level - where did you read that?
Anyway, before there was any change in the equipment level at the start of
the year, through the first two races, Gibernau led in points over Biaggi 41
to 40, after winning in the rain, one of his real strengths, at home. I
don't think you can say Max "simply didn't ride that material as well as
Gibernau did" based on that, and in fact we don't know that Max had the same
stuff as Sete at the start. And as for Pons having an excellent relationship
with Honda, that's not what I've read over the years.

  > > ... Edwards continues to struggle,
  > > complaining more of the chatter problem than anyone else, and it's not
  > > entirely clear why - riding style, lack of experience with GP bikes and
  > > tires, lack of experience with the RCV, pushing harder on lesser
 > equipment,
  > > all of the above. ...

 > He too had his chance earlier in the year and can't complain too much
about
 > material preferences this year given the fact he's been nowhere close to
his
 > teammate from race 1. In any case, in a close championship like this,
Honda
 > desperately needs more bikes able to intercept and challenge the Yamahas.
 > Gibernau can not win alone, he needs more support, and he's not going to
get
 > it from Biaggi, and the Repsol guys are so far off the pace that even they
 > are not going to be able to provide tactical support. It makes sense to
try
 > to give Edwards everything he needs to succeed, and I must assume the team
 > manager knows it and is doing it. But seemingly Edwards still needs more
 > acclimatization or something.

The team manager hardly controls what his riders get from HRC. That's simply
not how it works in factory-level racing. And I think you make a big mistake
saying Biaggi can't help the Honda cause.

  > > ... Hayden may be getting close to a breakthrough, and we have
  > > to assume he has the equipment to do it, but Barros seems to have melted
  > > under the pressure to perform at the level expected when he was hired.

 > Barros definitely will probably never get such a chance again. Hayden...
 > it's nice to finish in the top 5 consistently, but to llive up to the hype
 > and the support he's received he needs to score a win this year finally,
 > otherwise HRC might feel humiliated and look for an entirely new stable.

He has to continue to improve, and a win is a reasonable expectation. But
realize how much better he's doing now compared to last year at the same
tracks - last year Honda swept the Assen podium, and Hayden finished 11th.
And remember that Doohan didn't win a race until the penultimate round of
his 2nd year on the factory team.

  > > ... Checa has his moments, but I think in the
  > > end he's also showing his weaknesses as a rider - he's just not in
Rossi's
  > > league, on balance.

 > No one ever expected him to be, I think. Checa is a solid top 10 rider,
but
 > eventually giuys like him will get displaced by younger guys that can
place
 > similarly and offer some growth for the future. Checa isn't going to win a
 > title going forward.

Probably not this year, but he's in his sixth year on the factory Yamaha
team, and last year he was promoted to lead rider. If they didn't think he
could do the business, why was he there? I ask since you don't believe in
sponsor nationality-based favoritism...

  > > ... Sete needs to have a machine advantage in order to beat
  > > him; right now his pluses are horsepower and machine-like consistency in
 > his
  > > riding, but the bike just doesn't work as well through the corners. ...

 > Well, this contradicts what you write above about him clearly not being as
 > good a rider as Rossi. So either you're not sure about the Yam being the
 > better bike, or you're not sure about Rossi being the better rider.
Claiming
 > both can be done, but is in no way really supported by the existing
 > evidence.

Again you see an inch and call it a mile...

  > > I haven't seen anything. Barros doesn't seem to have a clue about it -
"I
  > > don't know what happened in the crash; the back let go and next thing I
 > know
  > > I'm hitting the ground".

 > Well, the last thing he needs to be doing career wise is to state anything
 > that may be constructed as criticism of his bike. I suspect even if it had
 > been mechanical failure he'd shut up at this point.

I would expect Honda to say what happened, though. I can't see them leaving
Barros looking like he f*cked up if it was determined that it was the bike.

  > > ... Hodgson is getting
  > > back into the swing now, getting healthy. He'll be interesting to watch
 > over
  > > the next few races.

 > Yeah, but it's sad how far behind Ducati has fallen, how could that
happen?
 > And it is indeed a big surprise to see Xaus so clearly heading their
effort.

I think they just didn't move forward this year, and everyone else did by a
significant margin. Since the '03 machine is well-sorted and he just wants
to do as well as he can, Xaus can accomplish better results. A lot less
pressure and expectations than the factory guys.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Assen MotoGP race 

"Mark N" <menusbaum.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:x_adnbNcFo_rE0LdRVn2sg@giganews.com...
 >
 > The problem is you read, "on balance the Yamaha looks like the better
bike,
 > despite the Honda power advantage" and you think that means "Yamaha is so
 > clearly the better bike" and "truly superior". You read, "Sete... is not
 > quite the rider Rossi is" and you think that means he is a very "shabby
 > rider". So what are your conclusions?

This will quickly become a circular argument, particularly since you seem
willing to moderate your claims when challenged. In order of priority,
however, you merely use data as an excuse to repetitively claim the
following things
(a) Rossi just wins because of a significant machine advantage
(b) European riders are mediocre and just get their machines due to sponsor
pressure
(c) everybody you like -mostly US riders- are unfairly disadvantaged by
factories

 > It is speculative, of course. I haven't heard that it was announced that
 > Biaggi had been bumped up to factory level - where did you read that?

We had a discussion in here, right after it was announced that his team had
secured HRC support along with Gibernau's.

 > ... I
 > don't think you can say Max "simply didn't ride that material as well as
 > Gibernau did" ...

Since he hasn't placed in front of Gibernau you easily can. Biaggi has not
been close to Gibernau and Rossi ever since the first race.

 > ... And as for Pons having an excellent relationship
 > with Honda, that's not what I've read over the years.

Well, he's Spanish, according to your usual logic that should mean he gets
everything he wants. Seriously. Pons has been an extremely loyal Honda
teamplayer, and Honda has appreciated that since his 250cc days.

 > The team manager hardly controls what his riders get from HRC. That's
simply
 > not how it works in factory-level racing.

What does the team manager do, then?

 > ... And I think you make a big mistake
 > saying Biaggi can't help the Honda cause.

Biaggi seems very unlikely to stick to helping Gibernau if he gets superior
machinery (provided he truly doesn't already have it and, liked Barros and
Hayden, simply doesn't do enough with it), he is likely to try to prove he
is number one and fight Gibernau just as hard as Rossi.

 > And remember that Doohan didn't win a race until the penultimate round of
 > his 2nd year on the factory team.

Yes, and that's why I say later this year the pressure will be on for
Hayden. He has to show he trulky deserves direct top level HRC support. At
some point in time in the none too distant future, HRC will demand wins.

 > Probably not this year, but he's in his sixth year on the factory Yamaha
 > team, and last year he was promoted to lead rider. If they didn't think he
 > could do the business, why was he there? I ask since you don't believe in
 > sponsor nationality-based favoritism...

He is there because as of yet there wasn't a better bet. As of yet,
newcomers right Hayden or Edwards or whoever do not seem to be clearly
superior bets.

....pablo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On 2004-06-26, Mark N <menusbaum RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
 > Again, I think it's way too simplistic to think the
 > improvement at Yamaha and the relative slide at Honda is all Rossi's R&D
 > skills.
 >

Ockham's razor... Rossi is obviously that much better prepared than the rest
of the field. His professionalism is probably worth at least half a
second per lap.

Hayden racing through the field, that's talent. Hadyen qualifying 16th,
that's preparation (or lack thereof). "Being green" is not an excuse at this
level.

--
Jiann-Ming Su
"Math is nothing more than the lesbian sister of Biology." --Peter Griffin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Assen MotoGP race 

"Jiann-Ming Su" <js1.TakeThisOut@k4.js1.bogus> wrote in message
news:slrncduuu9.22e.js1@laptop.js1.bogus...
 > On 2004-06-26, Mark N <menusbaum.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
  > > Again, I think it's way too simplistic to think the
  > > improvement at Yamaha and the relative slide at Honda is all Rossi's R&D
  > > skills.

 > Ockham's razor... Rossi is obviously that much better prepared than the
rest
 > of the field. His professionalism is probably worth at least half a
 > second per lap.

I would agree that he brings the best package to the table. But do you think
Yamaha would spend $11M on Rossi and then not give him a tool to win with?
Signing him put a lot of pressure on them to produce, otherwise it would be
a case of even Rossi being unable to make the Yamaha a winner. Now I think
the bike was pretty damned good last year (it was wet, but Checa and Jacque
did finish 4th and 5th at Assen last year), but they didn't have the riders
to get it done. Rossi has given them that, and he and his team have sorted
what they have pretty well. The measure of the improvement is Checa and
Melandri, although you would expect Marco to be better than last year just
on experience.

 > Hayden racing through the field, that's talent. Hadyen qualifying 16th,
 > that's preparation (or lack thereof). "Being green" is not an excuse at
this
 > level.

Inexperience is always an excuse, or at least an explanation. Six races into
Rossi's rookie year in 500 he had 41 points, no wins and sat 10th in
championship, on a factory Honda that had taken 1st, 3rd, 5th in the
championship the year before even without Doohan - should he have been fired
on the spot? Hayden isn't a rookie, of course, but he didn't have four years
of grooming in GP's support classes either. Regarding Assen qualifying, he
is still trying to figure out the bike, others are struggling with the same
machine, and they only had one session with dry track time. Edwards
qualified 13th, Biaggi 12th, Barros 6th, Gibernau, pole man at the three
previous rounds, 3rd. And Melandri was 4th and Checa 2nd, so I think it's
safe to say the Yamaha is either a better bike or easier to set up quickly
right now, or both. Rossi likely has something to do with that, I would
grant you, part of that being his absence as point man at Honda.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Assen MotoGP race 

On 2004-06-27, Julian Bond <julian_bond RemoveThis @voidstar.com> wrote:
  >> - The guy we can finally dismiss now is Barros, who made a run at one of
  >>his best tracks, as high as 2nd, but then crashed once again.
 >
 > Any news yet on whether the crash was a mechanical failure? On the
 > replay it did look like an engine lockup.
 >

Seemed like he just got pitched when his rear tire hooked back up.
Maybe it was a mechanical failure.

--
Jiann-Ming Su
"Math is nothing more than the lesbian sister of Biology." --Peter Griffin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Assen MotoGP race 

"pablo" <pabloNOSPAMsimplyhombreDOTnet> wrote in message
news:10dv5a8o60ogb9c@news.supernews.com...
 >
 > "Mark N" <menusbaum.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote

  > > The problem is you read, "on balance the Yamaha looks like the better
 > bike,
  > > despite the Honda power advantage" and you think that means "Yamaha is
so
  > > clearly the better bike" and "truly superior". You read, "Sete... is not
  > > quite the rider Rossi is" and you think that means he is a very "shabby
  > > rider". So what are your conclusions?

 > This will quickly become a circular argument, particularly since you seem
 > willing to moderate your claims when challenged.

Moderate my claims? Look at the above - those are direct quote from my
previous post, followed by direct quotes from yours. No, it is once again a
case of you misrepresenting or misuderstanding what I have said, with
another example of that to follow here:

In order of priority,
 > however, you merely use data as an excuse to repetitively claim the
 > following things
 > (a) Rossi just wins because of a significant machine advantage

No, Rossi has been as dominant as he has been in large part because he has
always had something of a machine advantage. If you look at my MGP season
prediction you would see that I rated him tthe best rider. He is that, but I
haven't felt the margin is as large as the pro-Rossi "walks on water" crowd
believes.

 > (b) European riders are mediocre and just get their machines due to
sponsor
 > pressure

No, some European riders have received and retained opportunities in large
part because they serve the economic interests of sponsors. Doesn't mean
they are incompetent or that this is the case with all of them, or that this
doesn't happen with non-European riders (look at Barros). But it is
undeniably the case with some, the connections and the lack of real results
over literally years makes it perfectly obvious what has been happening -
except to someone who is living in Euro-centric denial...

 > (c) everybody you like -mostly US riders- are unfairly disadvantaged by
 > factories

No, not the case again. For instance, I am not particularly a fan of Biaggi,
who I think can be fairly called an egostical jerk, and last time I looked
he wasn't American.

  > > It is speculative, of course. I haven't heard that it was announced that
  > > Biaggi had been bumped up to factory level - where did you read that?

 > We had a discussion in here, right after it was announced that his team
had
 > secured HRC support along with Gibernau's.

As I recall, that was about the report that he was becoming a
Repsol-sponsored rider. I don't recall seeing anything that directly linked
that to stepped-up HRC support, rather that was the speculation at the time.
And I haven't seen any visible Repsol logos on his bike yet.

  > > ... I
  > > don't think you can say Max "simply didn't ride that material as well as
  > > Gibernau did" ...

 > Since he hasn't placed in front of Gibernau you easily can. Biaggi has not
 > been close to Gibernau and Rossi ever since the first race.

Max was right on Sete's ass most of Jerez and led for a bit, and finished
well ahead of Rossi. Max finished less than 2 seconds behind Sete at Le
Mans, and more than two seconds ahead of Rossi. Max was only 1.3 seconds
behind Rossi when the Mugello race was stopped for the rain. Did you not
read my "long intro on the machines and this and that" in my original post?
Do you not comprehend? Or are you living in a state of denial?

  > > The team manager hardly controls what his riders get from HRC. That's
 > simply
  > > not how it works in factory-level racing.

 > What does the team manager do, then?

Lots of stuff needs to be done to run a GP team, of course. But HRC decides
what individual riders get, what level of support they receive. They have
limited capability to produce the latest stuff, and what it to go where they
weant it to go. For instance, last year when Gresini had Kato and had signed
on Telefonica and Gibernau, it wasn't up to him which rider got the good
stuff. Kato was the factory-supported rider and Sete was to receive a lower
level of support, no matter what Gresini and Telefonica might have wanted.
Same thing went on at Pons between Ukawa and Biaggi.

  > > ... And I think you make a big mistake
  > > saying Biaggi can't help the Honda cause.
 >
 > Biaggi seems very unlikely to stick to helping Gibernau if he gets
superior
 > machinery (provided he truly doesn't already have it and, liked Barros and
 > Hayden, simply doesn't do enough with it), he is likely to try to prove he
 > is number one and fight Gibernau just as hard as Rossi.

That's right, but if he can beat Rossi but not Sete then it helps Sete. What
Honda needs andhas needed is a number of guys with superior bikes who can
all beat Rossi on a regular basis. The only guy out there that they could
see helping Sete directly, and only later in the year, would be Edwards, who
could be subject to team orders then.

  > > And remember that Doohan didn't win a race until the penultimate round
of
  > > his 2nd year on the factory team.

 > Yes, and that's why I say later this year the pressure will be on for
 > Hayden. He has to show he trulky deserves direct top level HRC support. At
 > some point in time in the none too distant future, HRC will demand wins.

I think you're mostly right, but I think it's a bit more refined than that.
If they think he's their man for the future and is making progress, they
might not want to upset that, wins or no. If they think he needs a kick in
the ass, then they might do it. If they think he's just not getting it done
and won't, they might do it before completely giving up on him. They didn't
get on Doohan's case in '90, rather he became very vocal about not getting
the same chassis bits as Gardner, and when they relented he won. It may very
well be that Nicky hasn't gotten quite what Barros has to this point, which
is supported by Nick reportedly getting the new chassis later than Barros in
the offseason testing.

  > > Probably not this year, but he's in his sixth year on the factory Yamaha
  > > team, and last year he was promoted to lead rider. If they didn't think
he
  > > could do the business, why was he there? I ask since you don't believe
in
  > > sponsor nationality-based favoritism...

 > He is there because as of yet there wasn't a better bet. As of yet,
 > newcomers right Hayden or Edwards or whoever do not seem to be clearly
 > superior bets.

No, but they at least have some possibility of getting there with more
experience. Checa has been in the big class for nine years now, and there
has been little chance that he'd suddenly become a top dog. And there were
other very good riders and former champions out there in less-than-stable
circumstances - Roberts and Capirossi. I think Yamaha had Checa as a
stop-gap after they had given up on Biaggi but hadn't yet made full
commitment to winning in GP, which worked because the sponsor was happy
enough with that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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