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External
Since: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:18 am
Post subject: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues
Archived from groups: rec>motorcycles>tech (more info?)
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Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on it.
Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator Rotor
($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
(14.52vdc at 3k rpm), but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a hard
time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and drops
to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119), no
help, engine will start, but has hard time. Checked valve clearance,
should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to experiment
with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running so
sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any ideas??? |
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External
Since: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 162
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"kimmya" <b717doc.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7c060511560d0c1bf9af524f263c1363@localhost.talkaboutmotorcycles.com...
> Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on it.
> Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator Rotor
> ($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
> e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
> (14.52vdc at 3k rpm), but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a hard
> time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and drops
> to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119), no
> help, engine will start, but has hard time. Checked valve clearance,
> should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
> zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
> cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to experiment
> with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running so
> sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any ideas???
Yes...... Valve clearances are there for a reason...... you will need to
bring them back to spec which means pulling the engine out of the frame to
get at the heads..... its not a hard job to do, just a bit time
consuming.....once you have the engine out, then you can take the head off
and get at the shims. Replace the shims with the proper clearance
tolerances and put the thing back together and your problem should go away.
If you do not know how to take the engine out, then you can get a manual
for it or take it to someone who knows how to work on it. It really isn't
that hard removing the engine.... remove the exhaust, remove the area of the
frame that is bolted on (on the right side) and then its just (i believe) 4
bolts and unpluggin of a couple of wire conectors.....once the engine is
out, remove the cover, remove the cams, and voila....put in the right shims
and be careful though when putting it back..... line up the #1 piston to
TDC, then put your cams back making sure they aren't 180 out. The manual
will explain this a bit better to you.... the high point of the number 1
(and if I remember correctly the number 4 as well) cam should face inward to
each other (both cams). Once that is done... check and recheck.... because
you don't want to take it apart a second time. Check the clearances AFTER
you have put the head back on... It will change once you have the head back
in place.....so if at that point you need to change anything, you will be
able to....
Good Luck...
Fwed<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Jul 18, 2003
Posts: 1532
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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fweddybear wrote:
>
> "kimmya" <b717doc.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:7c060511560d0c1bf9af524f263c1363@localhost.talkaboutmotorcycles.com...
> > Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on it.
> > Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator Rotor
> > ($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
> > e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
> > (14.52vdc at 3k rpm), but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a hard
> > time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and drops
> > to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119), no
> > help, engine will start, but has hard time. Checked valve clearance,
> > should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
> > zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
> > cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to experiment
> > with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running so
> > sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any ideas???
>
> Yes...... Valve clearances are there for a reason...... you will need to
> bring them back to spec which means pulling the engine out of the frame to
> get at the heads..... its not a hard job to do, just a bit time
> consuming.....once you have the engine out, then you can take the head off
[Snip unrelated stuff about a completely different engine]
The '81 CB650 is a SOHC design with screw and locknut adjusters. There is
no reason to remove the engine, the head, or the cam. There are no shims.
Even the DOHC 16 valve engines such as the '81 CB900C didn't require
removing the cams- the shims were over the buckets.
I doubt that the hard turning starter when hot has anything to do with
valve clearances, but certainly the clearances need to be adjusted to
the proper values, and that is a fairly easy job to do.
--
Mark '01 SV650S '86 GL1200A '81 CM400T '99 EX250-F13<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Dec 26, 2004
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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kimmya wrote:
> Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on it.
> Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator Rotor
> ($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
> e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
> (14.52vdc at 3k rpm), but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a hard
> time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and drops
> to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119), no
> help, engine will start, but has hard time. Checked valve clearance,
> should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
> zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
> cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to experiment
> with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running so
> sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any ideas???
>
0000 will just burn the valves.
Check ignition timing, sticking advance weights or broken springs.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 189
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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kimmya wrote:
> Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on it.
> Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator Rotor
> ($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
> e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
> (14.52vdc at 3k rpm)
Congrats!
, but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a hard
> time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and drops
> to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119), no
> help, engine will start, but has hard time.
Try having the throttle completely closed when using the electric
starter. This should lower the pressure in the cylinder a bit so it
turns over easier. Soon as it fires crack the throttle.
Checked valve clearance,
> should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
> zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
> cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to experiment
> with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running so
> sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any ideas???
What fweddybear said. Only thing is I would *REALLY* be sure my
measurements are right before I started adjusting. Sometimes you get odd
kind of mushroomed or a depression in the stems/adjusters. A gague won't
go in, but you can rattle the rockers just a bit.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 162
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:15 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Mark Olson" <olsonm.RemoveThis@tiny.invalid> wrote in message
news:4218B739.A5CAA5E7@visi.com...
> fweddybear wrote:
>>
>> "kimmya" <b717doc.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:7c060511560d0c1bf9af524f263c1363@localhost.talkaboutmotorcycles.com...
>> > Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on
>> > it.
>> > Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator Rotor
>> > ($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
>> > e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
>> > (14.52vdc at 3k rpm), but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a
>> > hard
>> > time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and
>> > drops
>> > to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119), no
>> > help, engine will start, but has hard time. Checked valve clearance,
>> > should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
>> > zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
>> > cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to experiment
>> > with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running so
>> > sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any
>> > ideas???
>>
>> Yes...... Valve clearances are there for a reason...... you will need
>> to
>> bring them back to spec which means pulling the engine out of the frame
>> to
>> get at the heads..... its not a hard job to do, just a bit time
>> consuming.....once you have the engine out, then you can take the head
>> off
>
> [Snip unrelated stuff about a completely different engine]
>
> The '81 CB650 is a SOHC design with screw and locknut adjusters. There is
> no reason to remove the engine, the head, or the cam. There are no shims.
>
> Even the DOHC 16 valve engines such as the '81 CB900C didn't require
> removing the cams- the shims were over the buckets.
>
> I doubt that the hard turning starter when hot has anything to do with
> valve clearances, but certainly the clearances need to be adjusted to
> the proper values, and that is a fairly easy job to do.
>
> --
> Mark '01 SV650S '86 GL1200A '81 CM400T '99 EX250-F13
Oops.... you are right.. I was thinking about the 750 DOHC engine.... my
mistake...
Fwed<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Jan 07, 2005
Posts: 234
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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kimmya wrote:
> when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a hard
> time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, >and
drops to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed.
When an engine is hot, and the fuel/air mixture is very lean, the spark
will fire too early, building combustion pressure in the cylinder that
resists the starter's attempt to crank the engine over...
An engine that has been timed with a timing light that blinks as the #1
cylinder fires won't necessarily have the same ignition timing as an
engine that was timed statically. That's because of the way differences
in cylinder pressure affects spark timing. A spark plug will fire when
it has enough voltage to overcome the pressure in the cylinder. Since
the cylinder cranking pressure is lower than the cylinder running
pressure, the spark plug can fire prematurely...
One way to overcome starting preignition is to richen up the idle
mixture by turning the screws out half a turn...
Sometimes the problem is carbon buildup in the combustion chamber and a
bit of combustion chamber cleaning chemical like Techron will
help reduce the preignition...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hey Guys....
None of the above,,,,charging system is the culprit....Engine runs WAY
too good to be timing or valves....As long as battery is in top condition,
bike performs well, if allowed to idle stationary for any period of time,
things start to go wrong....In order to keep things working, bike must be
driven, and placed on trickle charge when parked......this is a "Crap
in-Crap out" charging system, and must have good voltage going into rotor
via brushes....
Bike driven 87 miles today, absolutely NO issues, performed
flawlessly....(with trickle charge hooked up when parked overnite). I am
now a Honda CB650 charging system expert  any questions?!?!?!? >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 862
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:46 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rick Cortese wrote:
> Try having the throttle completely closed when using the electric
> starter. This should lower the pressure in the cylinder a bit so it
> turns over easier. Soon as it fires crack the throttle.
Uhh...no !!! The engine will crank over most easily with the throttle
wide open, not completely closed.
What the starter's working against is vaccum not pressure. When you
open the throttle, this allows air to flow freely creating less vacuum
and allowing the starter to turn the engine more easily. With a weak
battery, it can help to crank it with an open throttle then snap it
shut
as soon as the engine turns over.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 862
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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kimmya wrote:
> Hi all...I have a 1981 Honda CB650 custom with a little over 10k on
it.
> Initial problem was battery was'nt charging. Replaced alternator
Rotor
> ($129) repaired crushed harness, replaced voltage regulator ($55 on
> e-bay), replaced battery with Yuasa ($56) bike charging sweet now
> (14.52vdc at 3k rpm), but when eng gets hot, starter "lugs",or has a
hard
> time turning engine. At this point, battery voltage is 12.8 vdc, and
drops
> to about 9.0 vdc with start button pushed. Replaced starter ($119),
no
> help, engine will start, but has hard time. Checked valve clearance,
> should be .002 to .003 or something like that, I have 0000, that is
> zilch..all rocker arms very tight in all positions at TDC with engine
> cold. Engine runs excellant, with plenty of power. Afraid to
experiment
> with valve clearances or timing at this point, as engine is running
so
> sweet. With engine cold, starter spins engine like a top....any
ideas???
Considering that you've replaced every other component you
ought to also look at the wiring and battery cables. If the
starter's used, it could also be tired and in need of some
TLC.
I've always found my engine was a little harder to crank when warm
because compression had increased. If the battery and starter are
both in good shape though this shouldn't be an issue.
You also want to make sure the battery has the correct cranking
capacity (amps) for the bike and is in good shape (correct fluid
levels.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Jan 07, 2005
Posts: 234
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:04 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> What the starter's working against is vaccum not pressure. When you
> open the throttle, this allows air to flow freely creating less
>vacuum and allowing the starter to turn the engine more easily.
An interesting thought, you could see as much as 15 to 20 inches of Hg
on a vacuum gauge while cranking the engine around the same RPM the
engine would run at when idling...
That's about -7.4 to -9.8 PSI. Suppose you have a four cylinder engine.
One cylinder is compressing whatever air is in it, its intake valve is
closed so it's not contributing to the vacuum. One cylinder is
exhausting whatever air was in it, its intake valve is closed, so it's
not contributing to the vacuum, either. Nor is the cylinder whose
piston is going down on the power stroke, both of its valves are
closed...
Only one piston of an I-4 is doing all that sucking at any moment.
Let's say that the cylinder has a 3-inch bore. The area of the piston
is 7.07 inches...
If the vacuum on the engine is 7.4 to 9.8 psi, the suction force
against that *one* piston resisting the starting turning the engine
over would be about 52 to 69 pounds...
Gawd only knows what the force is on the one piston that's compressing
mixture because that cylinder can't get a deep breath of air with the
throttles closed...
If the throttle is wide open, the vacuum would be only 1 to 4 inches
Hg...
>With a weak battery, it can help to crank it with an open throttle
>then snap it shut as soon as the engine turns over.
Problem with that approach is that modern carburetors don't have real
choke plates, they have a bypass passage for the rich startup mixture.
If the throttle's wide open, the vacuum at the passage's outlet port is
too low to suck any useful amount of fuel. OTOH, the
jet needle may or may not be pulled out of the needle jet (depending on
whether it's a slide valve carb or a CV carb), and mixture pulled out
of the needle jet may flood the engine...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 189
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:40 am
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> Rick Cortese wrote:
>
>
>>Try having the throttle completely closed when using the electric
>>starter. This should lower the pressure in the cylinder a bit so it
>>turns over easier. Soon as it fires crack the throttle.
>
>
> Uhh...no !!! The engine will crank over most easily with the throttle
> wide open, not completely closed.
I beg to differ. Unless you have an engine with no compression it will
be easier throttle off and maybe even choke on.
Just tossing a few numbers after reading Krusty's post. If you manage to
pull one atm of vacumn that is ~15 PSI on the piston. If you have a WOT
with a 10:1 compression ratio, you will have ~150 PSI at TDC. 150 PSI is
a pretty good number for what you actually see when running a
compression test.
The closed throttle is pretty much SOP for kicking a big thumper.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Jan 07, 2005
Posts: 234
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:43 am
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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krusty kritter wrote:
> Let's say that the cylinder has a 3-inch bore. The area of the
>piston is 7.07 inches...If the vacuum on the engine is 7.4 to 9.8
>psi, the suction force against that *one* piston resisting the
>starting turning the engine over would be about 52 to 69 pounds...
Mumbling to myself in the predawn hours, I considered the problem a bit
further.
Suppose the I-4 engine I am mentally analyzing is about 1000 cc
displacement, each cylinder being ~15 cubic inches, with a bore of 3
inches and a 2.12-inch stroke, and you have 69 pounds of force opposing
the descent of that one piston on the intake stroke...
2.12/12 = 0.177 feet;
The stroke, in feet, has to be divided in half, since that's the
distance from the center of the crankpin to the center of the rod pin
when the piston is at 90 degrees ATDC...
0.177/2 = 0.089;
Then the maximum torque required from the starter to move that one
piston downward is;
69 X 0.089 = 6.106 foot pounds...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 862
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:01 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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krusty kritter wrote:
> Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
>
> If the throttle is wide open, the vacuum would be only 1 to 4 inches
> Hg...
>
> >With a weak battery, it can help to crank it with an open throttle
> >then snap it shut as soon as the engine turns over.
>
> Problem with that approach is that modern carburetors don't have real
> choke plates, they have a bypass passage for the rich startup
mixture.
> If the throttle's wide open, the vacuum at the passage's outlet port
is
> too low to suck any useful amount of fuel. OTOH, the
> jet needle may or may not be pulled out of the needle jet (depending
on
> whether it's a slide valve carb or a CV carb), and mixture pulled out
> of the needle jet may flood the engine...
I've found this worked on a warm engine with a marginal battery.
I think there were a couple of things going on:
1) Because of oil circulation, the rings sealed better so the
warm engine was harder to turn over.
2) After the first rotation or so, the momentum of the flywheel
helped it past the most difficult part of the cycle.
3) Because it was warm, there wasn't much need for choke anyway.
Anyway, I found this worked until I replaced the marginal battery.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 862
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:29 pm
Post subject: Re: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rick Cortese wrote:
> Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
> > Rick Cortese wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Try having the throttle completely closed when using the electric
> >>starter. This should lower the pressure in the cylinder a bit so it
> >>turns over easier. Soon as it fires crack the throttle.
> >
> >
> > Uhh...no !!! The engine will crank over most easily with the
throttle
> > wide open, not completely closed.
>
> I beg to differ. Unless you have an engine with no compression it
will
> be easier throttle off and maybe even choke on.
>
> Just tossing a few numbers after reading Krusty's post. If you manage
to
> pull one atm of vacumn that is ~15 PSI on the piston. If you have a
WOT
> with a 10:1 compression ratio, you will have ~150 PSI at TDC. 150 PSI
is
> a pretty good number for what you actually see when running a
> compression test.
>
> The closed throttle is pretty much SOP for kicking a big thumper.
I've found that a bike with a marginal battery will usually turn over
more easily with an open throttle than a closed one.
This is also offered as an explanation of why otto cycle engines
provide better engine braking than diesel engines. Diesels have
higher compression ratios but do not develop any appreciable intake
vacuum and because of this, do not do well at engine braking.
The argument is that the compressed gasses give you a spring effect
once you reach TDC while the vacuum stroke doesn't.
There are pretty decent explanations at:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_todaysdiesel.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_todaysdiesel.cfm</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.humvee.net/hid/engine/engbrake.html" target="_blank">http://www.humvee.net/hid/engine/engbrake.html</a>
A little bit of googling on diesel engine braking will turn up
lots of similar stuff.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: 1981 Honda CB 650 custom Starting issues |
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